Let's Talk Local Podcast | Is Sharia Law Already in Texas? The Truth with Sam Westrop

00:00

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

The term Islamification is controversial, but more and more people are asking whether it reflects real changes happening right here in Texas and across America. As Muslim populations grow and Islamic organizations expand their influence, concerns about integration, ideology, and political impact are becoming harder to ignore. Today, I'm joined by Sam Westrop to take a closer look at what's fact, what's fear, and what it all means for the future of our country with simple steps for each of us to follow moving forward. Sam has headed Islamist Watch at the Middle East Forum since 2017. And before that, he ran Stand for Peace, a London based counter extremism organization.

00:39

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say on this episode of Let's Talk Local. Sam, how are you?

00:58

Sam Westrop

I'm very well. Thank you so much for inviting me on.

01:02

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Sam, I am really looking forward to this interview. This is Sam Westrop that we have with us. He's the executive director, and correct me if I'm incorrect, of the Islamist Watch, which is part of the Middle East Forum. And you are essentially a world renowned expert in the space of covering Islam and all the components that affect it. Am I correct in stating that?

01:30

Sam Westrop

I think Renown is wildly wildly unfair, but but but I certainly am obsessed with this subject. I study both Islam and Islamism, primarily its movements and sects in the West and how those different sects interacts, their politics, their dramas, and how it feeds into the topical questions of extremism, of radicalization, and terror.

01:55

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Yes. Well, I I look forward to this conversation simply from a plain preparedness space, for anyone that's watching and listening. And, again, the approach of this particular interview is very different from what I I've done in the past, but simply because there are so many competing voices in this space, I want to ensure that we're able to paint an accurate picture and portrayal of what it is that we're all facing in The United States. And both you and I reside in Texas. You're new to Texas.

02:28

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Tell me how you came to Texas, if you wouldn't mind.

02:31

Sam Westrop

Oh, for sure. Well, I moved to The United States in about 2015. I left behind a whole bunch of of problems with Islamists in in Europe. America is the safest space from from which to do this this work. I initially moved to Boston, to Massachusetts.

02:52

Sam Westrop

I spent some years some years there, but keen to leave the East Coast. I I I settled on Texas as a a place of possibility, not just professionally because Texas has a lot going on as it relates to my subject. Not sure we'll we'll get to that. But personally, Texas seemed like the more prosperous, freer option. I was certainly a little tired of the East Coast.

03:17

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Alright. Well, we're happy to have you here. I'm truly grateful to Joanne for placing us in touch. And I'm not sure if you knew that's how I came to know of you, but the state is something that we work closely with, both my husband, myself, and various parts of our organization. So thank you for being here.

03:39

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

I look forward to diving in. In the first question that I'd, mentioned that I wanted to cover, I I think like I explained to you just prior to us recording, my background is certainly more in finance, mathematics, parenting, music. And I placed together this particular chart, but I know that there are errors within it. And I thought it was a more clear and effective framework for introducing audiences to the structure of Islam, include including its major sects, internal movements, the distinction between the religion itself and the political ideology of Islamism. So you said that there was an error.

04:22

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

If you would please explain the accuracies and the discrepancies if you could just so that viewers and listeners and myself are able to learn what is correct.

04:34

Sam Westrop

As you know, Islam broadly divides into two major parts, Sunni and Shia. Mhmm. There are additional movements on top of that who sometimes consider themselves outside that Sunni Shia dichotomy, but Sunni Shia certainly covers 98% of the Muslim world. Sunni Islam is particularly interesting because it has no hierarchy. It has no pope.

04:57

Sam Westrop

It has no chief rabbi. No no archbishops.

05:01

Video Clip

Instead, it has hundreds, thousands of competing movements and sects. And these these movements and sects delineate along a whole array of lines. Yohr Shacht mentions, for example, the schools of jurisprudence,

05:17

Sam Westrop

Hanasi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali is another one. But these then divide further, convoluted further by things like questions of spiritualism, of Sufism, but also questions of location where cultural you know, two thousand years of cultural influence has has has changed a particular sect away from its its founding idea. But then you have the political foundations of sex as well. And Islam, especially Sunni Islam, for the last two thousand years has undergone an extraordinary transformation with waves of reform and then violence and debate and clashes, sex competing with each other often violently, but sometimes intellectually. And so the results, you know, fourteen hundred years later after the founding of of of the religion of Islam is this mesh, this this amazing mass of competing ideas with no clear single person or sect in in command.

06:18

Sam Westrop

Now that's the Sunni side. The Shia side is a little more ordered, a little more structured. It has some degree of hierarchy, at least within one part of the Shia world, which is called Twelva Shia. And the Twelva Shia is is Iran. It's it's parts of Iraq.

06:32

Sam Westrop

It's parts of Lebanon. It's parts of South Asia. But Shia Islam, the mosques generally follow a merger, a ruler. In this case, the world's miaraji, which is the plural, have the for most Shia mosques around the world have been have been one of two people, the late Ayatollah Khamenei until his recent death in Iran during the war, and on the other hand, Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq. There are other Ayatollahs that lead Shia mosques around the world, but but these two oh, now Sistani really controls the majority of the world's 12 ish Shia.

07:07

Sam Westrop

And then you have other Shia sects such as the Ismailis. You might have heard of. You have

07:11

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Oh, have a very good friend who comes from the Smiley space, and she well, she no longer practices, but, yes, so I'm very familiar with it.

07:19

Sam Westrop

We should get back to them because they're a very interesting collection and I think a real beacon of promise for Shia Islam in in in light of the problems with 12 or Islam in Iran. And then you have smaller Shia sects as well. Now this is Sunni and Shia. This makes up Islam.

07:37

Video Clip

Mhmm.

07:37

Sam Westrop

Then you have in the twentieth nineteenth and twentieth century, the development of what we call Islamism. Mhmm. And Islamism was particularly interesting because it wasn't just another development within Islam, the same development and series of developments that have been going on for fourteen hundred years. No. This was something different because it took elements of Western collectivist ideologies, the same kind of ideology that was informing socialism and fascism in the late nineteenth century, and it sought to create a new collectivist Islamic ideal.

08:09

Sam Westrop

Some of the very early Islamist ideologues that most of them were exposed to Western education. So Islamism is this fusing of of of bad ideas from the West with bad ideas from the East. And to my mind, Islamism is one of the three terrible isms of the nineteenth and twentieth century along with socialism and fascism. Mhmm. And this has been growing within different Muslim communities in different forms since the nineteenth century.

08:38

Sam Westrop

Your chart mentions Deobandi and Barelli. Well, Deobandis and Barellis were a division that formed two sects that formed in response to British rule in the nineteenth century. And Thayabandis today, for example, are one of the most dangerous

08:53

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

sects Dangerous. Yep.

08:54

Sam Westrop

In in the world, and they control 40% of British mosques, an unknown but likely considerable number of American mosques. In places like Pakistan, their bandits make up only 20% of the population, but they're responsible for over 80% of the terror attacks. So you can you can trace these particular sex movements to to patterns of violence, extremism, and radicalization. Now the reason that we draw a difference between Islam and Islamism at my organization, the Middle East Forum, is that we don't just point out that Islamism is a new development, relatively speaking. We point out that Islamism seeks to completely redefine the way that Islam is.

09:34

Sam Westrop

If you take some something like the the the question of economics, Islamism had to invent an entire theology around economics because Sharia finance didn't really exist in any coherent form before the advent of Islamism. So Islamism is a fundamentally new ideology. Now Islam and Islamism are both ideas that but they both should be subject to scrutiny. So I certainly don't have a problem with people criticizing either because, you know, ideas should be attacked. It's how we find out whether they're they're good or bad.

10:03

Sam Westrop

What I do think is problematic is conflating Islam and Islamism. That does a number of bad things. One, it stops us from identifying specific Islamist networks and how they operate because we're just talking about a far broader mass of peoples and movements and sects and ideas. Two, it prevents us from identifying possible reformers and allies within the Muslim community, and they do exist and we work with them. My organization employs them

10:28

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right.

10:29

Sam Westrop

And publishes them. And they are key because they suffer at the hands of Islamists, and it will be a betrayal to pretend they do not exist. It'll be a betrayal of the thousands, millions of Muslims killed over the last two centuries by Islamists at the hands of Islamist groups and networks. And today in the West, some of the loudest voices warning about the Islamist menace have been Muslim, and we still work with them them today. And it's crucial that conservatives don't abandon true advocates of liberty in this fight.

10:58

Sam Westrop

The left has a more complicated relationship with Muslims and Islamism. I'm hoping the right can can adopt small sensible approach where the left has failed.

11:08

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Would you mind elaborating on that? What is the is the difference, and where do you see areas of improvement and opportunity on on both sides?

11:17

Sam Westrop

Well, it's interesting. You know, if we stick to The United States just for the moment, before 2001, the Muslim community largely voted Republican. Mhmm. There's a a reasonable argument to be made that the the the small Muslim diaspora communities in the two thousands won the election for George Bush in 2000 when they when they when they won Florida. The problem was when the Republicans courted Florida, they did through did so through a man called Sami al Arian.

11:50

Sam Westrop

Sami al Arian, a few years later, after winning the election for George Bush, at least that's how he he sees it and how many Republicans saw it, he was arrested. It turns out he was part of the terror finance network that was moving money to Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas. He was eventually deported. He now lives in Turkey where he directs very dangerous Islamist networks from from from there. The Republicans quickly came to realize that a lot of the allies they'd been making in the Muslim political space were in fact Islamists.

12:18

Sam Westrop

And in the wake of of of the nine eleven attacks, the Republicans began to see the problem, at least the Bush administration began to see the problem. And the investigations into Islamist infrastructure was not just limited to Al Qaeda and the Salafi jihadists, but it also expanded to things like the Muslim Brotherhood. And the the the mean, the Bush administration saw for a while the overlap between the overt jihadists and this this more pernicious, exploitative, lawful side of Islamism that operated through through lawful infrastructure while still sharing some beliefs and occasionally some methods with the jihadists. So the the right began to realize there was a problem. The left, as opposition to the Iraq War grew and there was growing opposition to general intervention in The Middle East, the left, too much of the left, not all of it, but too much of it, began to embrace whom they thought were what they thought were Muslims as allies.

13:16

Sam Westrop

In fact, they embraced Islamists as allies, and this is where the phrase the red green alliance comes from. Yeah. Some of some some of your listeners might have heard that that phrase. This was the the far left and Islamist axis that existed really started properly around 2003 with the Iraq war. Now interestingly, the far left, a decade before that, was rather anti Muslim.

13:38

Sam Westrop

Many Muslims in Europe remember how the left denied the genocide and the and the killings in Eastern Europe, the Balkans during the

13:46

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

nineties. Mhmm.

13:47

Sam Westrop

A loss of a loss of the of the far left denied those those things happened at all, and and European Muslims remembered that. But the switch happened in in the February and with with growing leftist efforts to appeal to the Muslim votes and to Muslim protest and to Muslim partners to to legitimize and sanitize leftist messaging. The Muslim commune Muslim communities moved away largely from the right, not completely, but mostly. In 2008, the Obama administration adopted a very new approach to the way they were going to treat Muslims and Islamism explicitly. In fact, the Obama administration conducted a series of of out outreach campaigns to the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt.

14:32

Sam Westrop

It was very explicit. They met with their leaders. They invited their leaders to events in Cairo hosted by the US embassy. When it came to the Egyptian election after the Arab Spring a few years later, the Obama administration, effectively encouraged Mohammed Morsi, the Muslim brotherhood leader, to run for election. This was astonishing.

14:51

Sam Westrop

Just a few years ago, the federal government was prosecuting the Muslim brotherhood in The US because of its involvement in terror finance operations. Now it's embracing it with open arms. This was accompanied by a sharp decline in domestic investigations. So since about 2008, in fact, since the Holy Land Foundation trial in North Texas, which is a huge Hamas charitable operation run by Muslim Brotherhood activist, since that trial, almost twenty years ago, not a single Hamas or Muslim Brotherhood operative has been prosecuted in this country on terrorism charges despite there being a wealth of examples to investigate and prosecute, the left, took a permissive approach. And with the first Trump administration, the second Trump administration, I'm afraid to say that approach hasn't really changed.

15:40

Sam Westrop

Now it's early days yet in the second Trump administration. We may see movement, especially with recent designations of the Muslim brotherhood by the Trump administration. We may see that translate into federal action. But for the moment, both left and right remain supportive of alliances with Islamists. Just look, for example, the current government's, the current administration's partnership with Turkey and Qatar and Pakistan.

16:04

Sam Westrop

These are dangerous Islamist governments, but we look past their ideology because we the government sees them as as friends. So both left and right are now firmly deaf to the threat that Islam has imposes. And it's not just in The Middle East. In places like Bangladesh, the state department just within the last six months has been pursuing outreach to a group called Jamat Tizlami. And Jamat Tizlami is often described as the South Asian cousin of the Muslim Brotherhood.

16:30

Sam Westrop

It was founded shortly after the brotherhood, but its founder inspired the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Muslim Brotherhood founder inspired this group. They they have close links. And so the US government is currently pursuing outreach to this group in in Bangladesh. All over the world, in fact, US embassies and consulates often make the wrong choices when it comes to the groups they work with the meat, and the same extends to the domestic approach of law enforcement of now I've talked for a while, but the general point is that this is complicated, but by and large, the political classes have forgotten about the threat of Islamism. They see now Muslims where they should see Islamists, and in doing so, they fail to identify actual Muslims who could be their allies.

17:14

Sam Westrop

And they elevate, they sanitize, they fund with public monies Islamists who have taken control of too many Muslim communities across the Western world. My job lot a great deal of time in my job is spent trying to explain to legislators that they're working with the wrong people. This is a difficult point to sell because Islamists are very good at telling politicians what they they think they want to hear. Correct. And I'm sure many of your your viewers would have come across examples of in the news from time to time of radical imams and activists saying one thing in public, all about interfaith and love and peace, and then saying kill the Jews in private or slaughter the homosexual or death to the West.

18:01

Sam Westrop

And this extraordinary duplicity that exists within Islamist circles and their willingness to play Western media and politicians on one hand, but then tell tell hardline followers what they want to hear on the other has been a familiar theme to everyone in this this space, this counterterrorism space for many years.

18:19

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Yes. I I I agree with that. And I I've I actually am quite impressed with their systems of implementation and lower on whenever we look at one particular clip that talks about the infiltration, the population domination, never assimilate, Creed to Caliphate. It's there's a a system and process that has been adhered to with respect to European nations and spaces. And I'm just going to ask you questions about where and how long you believe it would take The United States to fall into a space similar to some of the clips that I'm going to show you.

19:01

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

The first one is, I saw it on I believe her name is Brigette's, ex account. And it's it was shared by an ex Muslim Afghan, and there's a particular handle that we'll be referencing. But it says that this originated in Afghanistan where Sharia has turned women into slaves who aren't able to leave their homes. They are treated worse than animals. If we could just take a look at this particular clip and if you would mind sharing with me what sect of Islamism this you believe this is and how long it would take us here, let's just say in Texas or The United States Of America, from where we stand to reach this level of adoption and widespread conduct?

19:46

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Because I know that, again, we're not as clearly, we're not as far along, and this would not happen in a public sphere or setting. So I'm aware of that, but I would very much like your your insight here if you would take a look with me.

20:42

Sam Westrop

Yes. I think I've seen this clip before. So Afghanistan is under the grip of a Deobandi Islamist movement known as the Taliban. And everyone I'm sure is aware of the name Taliban. Not enough people, particularly policymakers, know the name Deobandi.

20:57

Sam Westrop

That's right. And Deobandi, as I mentioned earlier, was actually formed in the British Raj in response to British rule in the nineteenth century, but it is now a very dangerous sect in in South Asia more broadly and parts of Central Asia such as Afghanistan. This certainly seems to be a classic Deyobandi punishment likely for zina or for witches adultery or some other alleged crime. The Taliban has been particularly consistent with its implementation of physical violence, especially against women for crimes they see as as violating the Sharia, the the religious law. Taliban Taliban justice is brutal.

21:41

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

It is.

21:42

Sam Westrop

From chopped hands to flogged children and women to horrible public executions, it is a an unpleasant and theocratic system. Worst of worst of all rather, the Taliban has its supporters here in the West within Dehovandhi communities, particularly up in Illinois and Chicago, but also in New York and here in Texas.

22:04

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right in North Texas. Right? There's a

22:06

Sam Westrop

North Texas and down in Houston as well. There's there's there are there are significant North Texas Deobandism is quite modern. It's a new modern seminary called the Kalam Institute. It's training Deobandhi Imams across the the country. The Deobandi's down in Houston are more more old school for want of a better word.

22:25

Sam Westrop

They're the old guard. They they found the madrasas down in Sugar Land, Texas that teach the the authentic Baobandi curricula, which is called Daz in Azami. And so Baobandism yeah. It varies a little between the the traditional and the modern. Both are dangerous.

22:44

Sam Westrop

Both should be be it should be should be thought. In terms of the support for the Taliban, it's not just theoretical support among Western Islamists, but but tangible support as well, explicit support, which you would have thought would violate sanctions and material support violation laws and all these things. But to date, no one has been prosecuted within Deirbandi communities in the West for their support of the Taliban. There was a charity up in Chicago called Islamic Oasis, quite a prominent five zero one c, works with a whole bunch of of of other five zero one c's. It has engaged in open contracts to the Taliban government.

23:22

Sam Westrop

Its leaders in Chicago openly talk about the wickedness of the Jews and its wonderful opportunities that the Taliban and its style of Sharia law will bring to to Muslims. They're very open about their Islamism. So, yes, this is a good example of of why when we think about Islam and Islamism in the West, we will have to remember it's not predominantly a Middle Eastern question. We've always associated it with The Middle East in our minds partly because of of nine eleven, but also because Islam, of course, originates from The Gulf. But we always have to remember that there are twice as many Muslims in South Asia as there are in The Middle East.

23:58

Sam Westrop

And Western Muslim communities, particularly in The UK and The US, that they are plurality South Asian, not Middle Eastern. As a result, the Islamist movements within those communities are largely also South Asian rather than Middle Eastern. Deobandism is the ideology I am most concerned about in the West. I think it gets very little attention. Mhmm.

24:20

Sam Westrop

Most policymakers haven't heard the name, as I mentioned. And I think no one has properly yet studied its its influence, its reach, its its extent. And that's something that I'm working on right now. But I would hope to see, you know, law enforcement departments and think tanks and academics and media obsessing over this question all over the country because these are dangerous people in our midst and they should be called.

24:43

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right. And kind of circling back to the question of how long would it take systems of this sort, the the display that we just saw, how long would it take for that type of treatment behavior to be carried out here on US soil if it is not happening already?

25:03

Sam Westrop

Well, there's certainly been examples of horrible acts of violence within communities in the West. The most frequent thing that comes to mind is is honor killings, which, of course, not an exclusively Islamist idea nor a Muslim idea. They're they're an idea actually somewhat familiar to too many parts of the world. But certainly, it does often appear to be within communities where there is Islamist influence that you find honor killings being being carried out. As an example, ten, fifteen years ago, an Islamist TV station, I think based on the East Coast, the owner was always attacking its critics as Islamophobes are pointing out Islamist.

25:42

Sam Westrop

He then went and killed his own wife for for honor reasons just a few years later. And there have been examples all over the country. I'm sure your your viewers have have read about these in the paper and seen them over time. Something like the implementation of Hudud punishment for for Sharia violations is something that you you you see nods to in in the suburbs of Paris and and various other places where there are very concentrated Islamist problems. As it relates to The US, we're not in a position now where I think anyone expects to see that kind of behavior beyond private acts of violence.

26:21

Sam Westrop

The organized community violence, implementing Sharia law and and a punishment system, no. I I don't see that happening right now. Obviously, places certain sections of of Michigan, certain parts of Minnesota where there are heavy concentrations of Islamist are likely candidates for for that. And, certainly, you know, there have been islamistcom run compounds across The US over time. Jamat al Fukra, a very important well, once important Pakistani movement set up it sought to appeal to black American converts to Islam.

26:54

Sam Westrop

It set up little compounds all across the country, including one in Texas, but the most famous was in New York, a town called Islam, though. And there, they did manage their own affairs. And so it's difficult to know what went goes on behind those those wars, of of course. But but, yeah, we we we we should be concerned about as soon as you import Dalibandi Islamism into The United States, you run the risk that these communities will be formed and these kind of actions will be will be will be carried out. We're not there yet, but I it would be crazy to deny that it's it's not possible.

27:25

Sam Westrop

We'll get there some someday unless action is taken.

27:29

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Yes. Because I I do want people, yep, to understand the fact that they are here. They are here on our soil, and I appreciate you clarifying that and expanding upon it. If we look at this next clip by Brandon Straka, it's a Muslim man in The UK stating, we aren't here to coexist. We've been here to dominate and wipe you out.

27:53

Video Clip

We don't say that Islam is here to live, you know, to coexist with lots of different religions and all of us can just hold hands and be friends. This religion has been sent to dominate, to wipe out, to take out every other religion, to have the people leave every religion and to accept Islam. And if that requires fighting to achieve it, then it requires fighting to achieve it. Because the greatest purpose for which jihad was legislated is to make the word of Allah the highest and the word of those who disbelieve the lowest, even if the disbelievers hate it. We're not shy to say it, and we don't find that to be something that we should be shy to say.

28:36

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

I mean, again, what sect or school of Islam do you believe he follows? Is this widely adopted already within The United States?

28:47

Sam Westrop

The you know, I'm looking at the clip now, and he seems rather rather familiar, actually. But based based on his his head, well, I'm guessing he's he's Salafi or or possibly Theravandi, but I believe he's Salafi. Okay. So the The United Kingdom's Islamism is is largely South Asian. I think I mentioned 40% of Mosaddeo bandits.

29:12

Sam Westrop

There is a very significant Salafi movement as well in The UK. And Salafism is a Middle Eastern Islamist idea that is far less structured than other Islamist movements, and there are a number of strains around the world. The most famous strain familiar to your viewers, I think, would have been the Wahhabis in in the two thousands, of course, they have two state powers behind them, Qatar and Saudi. But Salafi has also come in in nonstate flavors as well. And a very strong Salafi movement emerged in the West in the two thousands here in Texas, and it's called the Al Maghrib Institute.

29:49

Sam Westrop

It's a seminary in Texas, and this trained a number of imams who now spread a certain method of Salafi thought, a certain approach to Salafi thought around the world, but particularly in The US and The United Kingdom. And so Texas is really the starting point for this new Salafi movement, and it has certainly inspired a lot of these imams in The United Kingdom as as as as well. We aren't here to coexist. We've been sent here to dominate and wipe you out. That is a a familiar statement from many of these imams, although he's being a little more more more frank.

30:22

Sam Westrop

I would I would need to see his name to determine exactly what sect, but, yes, I would guess Diavandi or or Salafi. If if it's okay with you, I I just because I'm mentioning all these different sects and groups, I I think I would just very quickly list the seven sort of networks operating the West today that I

30:39

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

think Please. Definitely.

30:41

Sam Westrop

Yeah. So, I mean, let's start with the ones we've mentioned, South Asian, Deobandi. We're aware of this group. The Taliban is its best example, but the Deobandi is one of two movements formed in response to British rule. The other was the Borelwi, and the Borelwi were another South Asian movement.

30:57

Sam Westrop

They were not always Islamist. They were and there's still today, there are sections of Bereawi Islam that are not Islamist. But in recent years, they have produced some very important Islamist subsects within the Bereawi movement. One is called Dawat I Islami. It's carried its members have carried out several violence attacks in Europe over the last few years.

31:14

Sam Westrop

The US headquarters for the Vaatiy Islami is here in Texas, Stanley Houston. Another one, Tadekola Bay, another Borowi subset, very active in Europe, less active in The United States, but the UK government is very concerned about this group because it sees it as the primary driving force behind what they call anti blasphemy extremism. In other words, Islamists seeking criminal punishment for those who are not Muslim enough Mhmm. For them. So that's the Borelis.

31:40

Sam Westrop

The Salafi's, I've already mentioned, they come in a lot of flavors. I've mentioned the modernist, based here in Texas, but they're also the jihadists whom we all know. That's ISIS. That's Al Qaeda. And then there are the purists, the and the isolationists who are the quietists who who who believe in Salafism but do not believe in in advancing through the political systems of the West or through violence their their agenda.

32:03

Sam Westrop

So they end up being a bit of a benign even if extreme force. Then we have Jamat Yazlami. I also mentioned that. That's the South Asian cousin of the Muslim Brotherhood, very important in Pakistan. I would say that it well, and then and then, of course, you have the Muslim Brotherhood as well.

32:18

Sam Westrop

That'd be number five, number six. By the numbers, Jamati Islami probably has more members than the Muslim Brotherhood in The United States. The focus has always been on the brotherhood here because, as we said before, we've always slightly over fixated on Middle Eastern Islamism as opposed to Islamism more broadly. Then you have the Shia, and the Shia Islamism is much more concentrated. We we refer to it as as Khameneiism after Ayatollah Khomeini, and it's an it it comprises not just the sections of the Iranian diaspora, but supporters of Hezbollah in Lebanon as well.

32:54

Sam Westrop

And Dearborn, Michigan certainly has a lot of Lebanese supporters of Hezbollah, but also South Asian Shias. In fact, I I was dealing a few years ago with a a South Asian Shia charity here in Texas called Saviour USA, and they were funding a group in Pakistan that's very openly supportive of Hezbollah and of of violent Shia extremism. So, after those those main networks, you have state networks as well. You have the Turkish regime, that's very instrumental in in disseminating its brand of Islamism around the world. And you have, of course, the Qatari regime whose Islamism is less religious and more about soft power.

33:39

Sam Westrop

It really falls into a hostile state category than a than an Islamist religious political category. So between these groups, this is a pretty they they control a pretty healthy proportion of American Islamism and Western Islamism. And they are not the only groups. There are smaller sects I haven't mentioned. I won't go into them here.

33:59

Sam Westrop

But needed to say, it's a diverse scene, and these groups compete with each other for money, for power, and for and for, you know, and for the Muslim vote, essentially. And and between them, I think you can map the vast majority of the problems that American Islam faces with extremism radicalization.

34:19

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

And on the whole, do all of these particular competing, let's call them movements, do they all fall within the Sunni space of Islam?

34:34

Sam Westrop

All of them apart from Khomeinism, which is the sheer

34:38

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Oh, okay.

34:39

Sam Westrop

Brand of yeah. So so no. The the as I mentioned previously, Sunni Islam has no hierarchy.

34:47

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right.

34:47

Sam Westrop

So that's why you have so many groups in the Sunni section, but the Shia Islamism is mostly limited to one, Khomeini. Now there is a second in the Shia, and that is, of course, the Houthis who Yes.

34:58

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right.

34:58

Sam Westrop

Part of the the Zaidi sect, which is part of the Shia sect. Technically, their Islamism is is is their own. They're so closely aligned with Iran these days that I generally just fold them into the Khameneist umbrella to make things to make things simpler. More simple. Even even within the Sunni thing, there are I mean, there's a there's a movement within Sunniism called Al Hadith, very important.

35:22

Sam Westrop

The the Pakistani terrorist organization, Lashkar Al Taiba, that carried out the two thousand eight Mumbai attack. Some of your viewers might remember that. That belongs that has links to the Al Hadith movement. And Al Hadith isn't doesn't fit perfectly within these other sects that I've mentioned, and there are other examples of this as well. So so when I come up with these frameworks, there are very much imperfections around the definitions.

35:47

Sam Westrop

There are other groups we're not mentioning that don't quite fit in, but needless to say, the point I always like to make is that this is not a simple threat. There are lots of moving parts, competing parts that we need to be aware of all of them if we are if we are to preserve the West's fight against these these theocratic ideas.

36:05

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

I agree with that. If we can, look at this next clip that I've included from Siggy Flicker warning about the Islamic plan to infiltrate, populate, dominate, never assimilate, create a caliphate, impose Sharia law. At the 30 mark, she quotes Charlie Kirk somewhere within her statement saying, repeating how he so eloquently stated that immigration without assimilation is invasion. But how, Sam, can people watch clips like this and not see a threat? If you wouldn't mind just just watching this with us.

36:47

Video Clip

It's called world domination, and they have a very simple plan, and it's actually brilliant. It's infiltrate, populate, dominate, never assimilate, and then create a caliphate, and then bring upon Sharia law. It's the greatest, greatest threat to Western civilization. And if you notice, 85% of Muslim refugees, they don't go to other countries, their countries. They have 54 Muslim nations.

37:12

Video Clip

You know why they come to Christian nations?

37:14

Video Clip

To change them.

37:16

Video Clip

And they do it by using our laws. And Charlie Kirk said it best, immigration without assimilation is an invasion. When I say that the world has a huge problem, and I I you've seen what happened in Europe. Europe has fallen, and we're too nice in America. We're letting people who come here who really don't love this country.

37:35

Video Clip

I wanna live in a country where everybody can practice the religion of their choice, but not have anybody threaten their right to exist or wanna change this Christian nation that I'm living in.

37:46

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Like you had mentioned, right, you there there's not a lot of people taking this threat seriously. But if if there is clear evidence from multiple spaces across the world showing the infiltration, the population, the domination, not assimilating, I I would hope that you would be able to shed some light to our viewers. Listeners, the simple fact that they're coming to Christian nations to change them by using our own laws and talk to us about how people are not able to see this threat.

38:22

Sam Westrop

I think there are I think it it would be helpful for us to define these threats because I think there are actually two questions here. One, there's the Islamist question that we've been we've been discussing, you know, determined and organized political networks

38:38

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right.

38:38

Sam Westrop

Operating globally with powerful finances, the ability both to commit acts of violence, but also to infiltrate Western institutions. That's that's one side of the threat. The other side is not totally unrelated, but certainly a distinct threat, which is uncontrolled immigration and foreign cultures that do not integrate or assimilate into Western values. Now it's important, I think, not to conflate these two two points. Now Islamists certainly make use of uncontrolled immigration to their advantage, but not all on the problems of uncontrolled immigration are Islamist ones.

39:21

Sam Westrop

I, you know, I I I That's right. One of one of the interesting things over the last ten, twenty years in The US has been watching America embrace the same immigration policies pursued by Europe despite having ample warning from Europe's experience of what those policies would entail. And so what that means is when we mass import cultures and we give them the opportunity not to assimilate, but to prolong and preserve rather ideas that are fundamentally against West western standards of decency, of liberty, of of of democracy. That is an enormous problem, and Europe is now grappling with the consequences of those decisions. You you would think that The US would have turned away faster than they did.

40:14

Sam Westrop

Where this does relate to Islamism is as it relates to how Western governments perceive the the communities, their their residents, their citizens. And for many years, especially in the eighties and nineties, Western academics, social scientists most most of the time, would talk about Europe being a melting pot of peoples while America was a sorry. Wrong way around. Europe was was a mosaic of peoples while they considered America to be a melting pot of peoples. And and this sounds like a questionable academic analogy, but, actually, it it did hold something true because while America encouraged for many years absolute assimilation with the American ideal, Europe, rather early on, decided to give foreign communities the chance not to be European.

41:13

Sam Westrop

And in Europe, for many years, this was known as multiculturalism policy. And multiculturalism is often used as a synonym for diversity, but that's not entirely right. In fact, multiculturalism is an argument that government should deliberately preserve the competing cultures and ideologies of its peoples. And what does that mean? That means no longer recognizing individuals who are who are citizens of a state.

41:39

Sam Westrop

Instead, it means collectivizing individuals into religious and political communities. So multiculturalism sought to not no longer treats, you know, some Muslim fellow as a private citizen who happened to be Muslim, but as a member of a particular Muslim community. So what happens when you create when government creates these communities? It says, well, who are your leaders? Who who is going to be running this community on behalf of the government?

42:07

Sam Westrop

Who should we deputize? Who should we give public funds to? Who should we elevate and legitimize? And who steps forward in the Muslim communities? The Islamists because they're the political beasts.

42:17

Sam Westrop

They're the ones with the wherewithal to take charge of these communities and to be deputized. So in other words, European governments somewhat made Islamism into what it is in in in in Europe. They gave Islamists the money, the public funding, the the power to take over these Muslim communities. And in doing so, they drowned out these the largely secular or or or privately practicing Muslim communal leaders and instead replaced them with figures from the Muslim brotherhood, from Jamati Islamis, from the Bay Of Bandis, from the Salafis. In fact, after the Salman Rushdie riots, the riots against the author, Salman Rushdie, wrote the book, The Satanic Verses, which your viewers might remember was was deemed to be deeply blasphemous by the Saudis and the Iranians.

43:03

Sam Westrop

British Muslims led the protest against him. In particular, it was the Durbanis and this group called Jamati Islami.

43:10

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Yes.

43:11

Sam Westrop

As a reward for organizing protests against this man and calling for his killing, as a reward, the British government under Thatcher, by the way, so a right wing government decided to give these groups leadership of their communities. So this is how pervasive this mindset was. It extended even to Thatcherism. And the thinking went that if we allow these people to be deputized, to to be running their own communities, that will help this mosaic idea. This will bring them into this fold of of of friendly cultures and peoples working and living together.

43:50

Sam Westrop

Of course, the response should have been the opposite. It should have been to to arrest those working to kill Salman Rushdie. It should have involved the investigation of the financial flows, links to foreign regimes, and the absolute understanding that assimilation is pivotal that and we shouldn't allow hostile and dangerous ideologies to flourish on British or European soil. And so this was the problem in Europe. Multiculturalism produced Islamist communities and usually with with with European public money subsidizing their rule.

44:20

Sam Westrop

This was not the case in The United States. The United States was a melting pot, very famously so, until recently.

44:27

Video Clip

Mhmm.

44:27

Sam Westrop

And something has happened in the last twenty, thirty years. And and, really, it it became so much worse after nine eleven. At the very point, you thought it should become better. It

44:37

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

became understood. Mhmm.

44:39

Sam Westrop

Local government in particular, but also also federal government funding programs really did the same. They sought to move money into the pockets of these radicals, and so the same thing happened. The radicals, they they spoke they to Muslim communities, they said, we want to give you money to for health care reasons, to set up sheltered schools, and public schools are a good a really good example of this question because of the move from public to private education that happens within state funding, thinking. And so the govern governments across The US said to Muslim communities, apply for money. We'll fund you.

45:10

Sam Westrop

So who applies for money? The Islamists. Because the Islamists are the one organized enough to do this. And and that now what happened in Europe to such disastrous effect is happening again here in here in The United States. So, yes, so I know I've got quite far away from the immigration question, but it really does all relate.

45:27

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

It's so applicable. Absolutely.

45:28

Sam Westrop

It's how governments fails to understand hostile ideologies and and throws money and and and bad ideological analysis at the problem.

45:39

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Yes. And what I've seen even just recently in Texas, I from what I've recently learned, I believe we have 15 to 20 banks on Texas soil who are helping fund this widely orchestrated system of Islamists. And so I'm I'm very concerned. I mean, clearly, has heard you who who I mean, you are someone who is much more knowledgeable about this vast framework, and I just pray that people can learn from all that you're imparting, all of this knowledge.

46:13

Sam Westrop

The yeah. The the the the thing that frightens me most is how how much I know I don't know. Sure. That's right. Know of I know of these nonprofit networks.

46:25

Sam Westrop

I track a lot of these financial movements. I try to delineate the threat into networks and subnetworks, and I track and map the mosques and the the persons. And I identify the possible allies and the reformers, but it's still only tip of the iceberg when it comes to this this subject. And the the thing that astounds me is despite the the considerable public interest in this subject, no one else is really doing this work. It's a few brave souls on Twitter and then similar social media platforms may be doing bits here and there.

46:58

Sam Westrop

And then there's my organization, and I can count on one hand the number of other organizations focused on this question. Where is the the the 4th estate? Where is the media?

47:07

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right. It's nonexistent.

47:10

Sam Westrop

And and it's not just the left as well. The right's

47:12

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

I'm aware.

47:13

Sam Westrop

Yep. The right's failure to cover this subject is is astonishing to me. We discussed earlier the interesting changing politics around the right and the left's approach to toismism. I fear that growing right wing outreach to the Muslim vote in the last five years has really discouraged because, you know, I remember ten years ago, the Daily Wire, the Daily Quarterly is quite prominent, right leaning outlets would devote considerable time to investigating these these networks and these issues, but far less so these these days. There's been a general decrease in interest.

47:47

Sam Westrop

Now that that does seem to be changing a little here in Texas Mhmm. Over the past couple of years with the awareness of of mosques like EPIC, the sustained Islamic centers, commune planned community in Josephine. And then also, of course, there's a people remember the Hamas networks that operate in the North Texas. There's an awareness of care in the Muslim Brotherhood, thanks to the designation. But there's still not enough going on.

48:11

Sam Westrop

I mean, if I can just take an example, the Hamas network in Texas did not disappear after 2008. Mhmm. And today, there are multiple charities operating here in Dallas and particularly in Irving

48:27

Video Clip

That's right.

48:28

Sam Westrop

Who are directly tied to those odd networks. And members of congress have been warning about some of these groups in North Texas. Foreign governments have been warning about these groups in Texas. I've certainly been writing about them, and you you can show these the links between some of these groups and foreign terrorist organizations abroad. Why does the Dallas Morning News, which pioneered the investigation into the Holy Land Foundation twenty years ago Yep.

48:52

Sam Westrop

Why is it not interested in looking into these these networks? Why does it not bother them that supporters of a foreign terrorist organization are exploiting a five zero one c just five miles from their office to the tune of millions of of dollars? Why is it not bother them that a very prominent private Islamic school set up by members of the Holy Land Foundation today employs the niece of Khaled Mashal, the head of Hamas, and that niece is an avowed supporter of convicted terrorists. You know, why are they not in and it's not just Hamas. To go down to Houston, you have groups like Tablighi Jamatz, a very dangerous missionary movement whose members have carried out dozens of terrorist attacks over the last years.

49:28

Sam Westrop

Their headquarters isn't isn't in Texas, and they have a particular these strong operations down in Houston. Or I mentioned the Iranian regime. The Iranian regime runs a mosque in in Houston called the Islamic Education Center of Houston. A few years ago, its children at the school of this mosque were caught singing songs praising the Ayatollah Khamenei and urging all Muslims to be loyal towards him. And that from that mosque, events are organized in support of Hezbollah, a designated terrorist group.

49:57

Sam Westrop

Worst off, the imam of that mosque is directly appointed by the supreme leader of Iran. This is a foreign government body on Texas Sodom. I have not seen a single serious investigation by any Houston newspaper into this into this mosque just just miles away promoting the interests of a foreign regime that has killed thousands of American soldiers and threatened the lives of of of thousands of American citizens. So I think, you know, I guess I'm over making the point. But but across the country, the media is failing to do its job.

50:28

Sam Westrop

Politicians can certainly be doing more. There's no doubt about that. But this refusal by academics, by journalists to study this problem and to expose it is is baffling.

50:41

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

It it most certainly is. And what I'm looking for from you is an actual game plan for not just the legislators, but for our attorney general, for our law enforcement, for our churches. Have you developed a system of implementation with, let's say, ground level being Texas and a system in which the federal landscape can be intertwined with the state space, the state law. Have you developed anything of that sort? And if not, could you particularly, I mean, maybe even just now, describe next steps for those specific groups of people from the legislators, the attorney general, the actual governor of Texas, law enforcement, and churches.

51:42

Sam Westrop

Yeah. No. We we have a series of policy based proposals and ideas and draft legislation that we're putting before not just the state government, but before the federal government as as well.

51:56

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Is it part the Sharia Free Caucus?

51:58

Sam Westrop

No. I've we've spoken with, of course, members of the Sharia Free Free Caucus. Our ideas and policies are a little more focused than that. The Sharia Free Caucus is a general a general warning call about the threat of Sharia. We're trying to focus on slightly more explicit tangible tangible points.

52:23

Sam Westrop

Broadly, our our policies, we often refer to them as as the three d's. It's defund, it's designate, and it's debilitate. Defund is making sure not a single cent of public money works its way into these networks. And we've we've uncovered over the past few years, we've uncovered at least $200,000,000 of federal money funding these networks. We've uncovered tens of millions of state networks, including at least 40,000,000 from the Texas state government to these groups.

52:52

Sam Westrop

The true amount of public funding is likely near a billion dollars over the past decade. That's very strong. Base it. Yeah. We we base that on firstly reported.

53:02

Sam Westrop

There's a a line in in five zero one c nonprofits. When they file a tax return, they have to list how much government funding they get. This line is not policed by the IRS, so it's very difficult to tell how accurate it is. And more importantly, most Islamist groups or many Islamist groups do not file a tax return either because they keep under a certain revenue or because they claim the church filing exemption that the IRS allows religious institutions not to file attached to that. So just taking that figure, that's over the last ten years, that's 900,000,000 of government funding.

53:31

Sam Westrop

So I assume that's 30 to

53:33

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

40%.

53:34

Sam Westrop

It might be far more than even a billion, a billion and a half. But we think it's a lot of money, especially when you consider all the state and city funding on top of the federal. And that's defund, but it also includes private funding as well. So it means stopping huge community foundations, corporate foundations from moving tens and tens of millions of dollars into the the pockets of of of these groups. I'm not sure that should necessarily should be compelled that stop, but it certainly should be pressure, public pressure for these organizations to stop funding extremism on Americans.

54:08

Sam Westrop

So that's one, defund. Two is designate, and this helps with the defunding. If we designate violence extremists as foreign terrorist organizations or domestic terrorist organizations, there is the option on the American statutory systems to do both. We can cause an enormous amount of trouble for these groups and their finances. The Muslim Brotherhood designation is fine.

54:28

Sam Westrop

It's a good start. But my complaint is always that we over fixate on the brotherhood and that there are these other dangerous networks we should be talking about instead. So great. Designate the brotherhood, but designate these networks as well. So we have a list of 12 networks we think should be designated, not just by the federal government.

54:45

Sam Westrop

We think there's we think Greg Abbott's approach was great. We think we he should be designating more Yep. Now, and I hope he does because it will make some of the the the other fights that the Texas state agencies have to pursue a little easier. So that's designate. And then three is is debilitate, and this is coming up with ways to make the lives of these extremist networks more difficult to organize, more difficult to fundraise.

55:10

Sam Westrop

So it's, well, it's a variety of things, but it's things like setting up a commission on Islamism. Donald Trump promised that in his fur before his first term. He said he was gonna do it. He forgot. We think he should do it.

55:22

Sam Westrop

We think it's a good idea. Set up of an advisory body that can speak to government agencies, law enforcement departments around the country, and making sure they're not working with violent extremists when they reach out to the the Muslim community. Dabilitate can be about enforcing existing law. I mentioned earlier that not a single Hamas operative on American soil has been prosecuted since 2008. Well, I've got a long list of Hamas operatives and their and their institutions to to prosecute and and and and and and have their leaders put in jail.

55:51

Sam Westrop

The law is not being enforced, and it's not just domestic stuff as well. Sanctions is very unevenly enforced. Foreign agent laws are very uneven. I mentioned the Iranian regime, Moss down in in Houston. Why that not a listed foreign agent?

56:05

Sam Westrop

It's clearly it's Imam is appointed by the supreme leader of Iran. Clearly, it should be on a foreign agent list. So debilitated is making sure that all the existing statutory powers are implemented and and utilized. It's things also things like making sure that government doesn't partner or contract with Islamist groups. There's a there's a for example, there's an important Islamist network in Virginia called the SAFA Network.

56:33

Sam Westrop

It has about $600,000,000 of assets, very wealthy. Most of its member institutions are charities, nonprofits, sort of think tanks, and and academic groups. They also run quite a large IT services, a computer services firm. That firm does an enormous amount of business with the Pentagon. We wanna see contracts like that end.

56:54

Sam Westrop

We wanna make sure that these these Islamist networks are not not getting into public institutions through through other means. We also wanna see greater investigations into Islamist financial setups. You mentioned banks, Eddie, or Islamist Sharia banking is a very fast growing industry, and the regulation is just not good enough. We wanna see greater derisking regulation. That's stopping international charities from easily moving money to terrorist groups because there's not enough scrutiny of how that money is is moved.

57:22

Sam Westrop

There's a ton that can be done. My biggest problem with the federal government is that it's deliberately choosing not to, and it has done since 2008. It has deliberately chosen to turn a blind eye to the actions of some Islamist networks. As a result, the law is not being enforced. And so while new designations will be helpful in expanding the toolkit, we have to make use of existing law.

57:47

Sam Westrop

The fact that that Hamas and its networks are running around North Texas right now unmolested, operating with impunity is is very worrying to me. And it really just takes a single decision by someone at the Department of Justice or indeed at the White House's National Security Council to completely reverse a policy that for the last two decades has allowed extremists to operate in our midst. This is the European approach. Let us not make the same mistake.

58:14

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Yes. I I I'm not sure if you're able to comment on something like the network of faith abiding, let's say, synagogues, churches. Is there anything that that particular faith system, those faith systems can do to work in partnership together in conjunction with the legal framework and architecture?

58:39

Sam Westrop

I think there is. One is recognizing that the move towards private schooling and and the voucher system of the companies that is not fundamentally a bad one. It's it's it's anyone surely can understand the the desire to remove the monopoly on education from the state's grip. That that seems like a fundamentally good idea. But there has to be a recognition that extremist groups will exploit the availability of public funding in the education space.

59:08

Sam Westrop

And I am very worried about the number of madrasas being set up across the country right now, specifically designed to await that state voucher, that state funding. Texas is leading the way in making this kind of private subsidy of of schools happen. As I say, not fundamentally a bad idea, but I would want to see other faith communities work with government on this to make sure that extremist theocratic movements do not do not take advantage. So that's about them being engaged in the issue. I'm dealing in just the last few weeks, I've been in a bit of a war with the the Church of Latter day Saints, the Mormon Church in in in Salt Lake City, because there, they operate an enormous financial arm, an aid arm, a charitable arm with good intentions Mhmm.

60:02

Sam Westrop

That is moving money into the pockets of extremists, into charities that fund her mass. In fact, I've uncovered tens of millions of dollars of Mormon money going to very bad places.

60:12

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Oh my gosh.

60:13

Sam Westrop

Unfortunately, this is not just a Mormon problem. The number of times I found Christian charities doing the same, World Vision is a good example of this, very prominent evangelical charity. 2017, I I uncovered a a story. I found that they'd been giving they'd given a $110,000 to an Al Qaeda branch in Sudan, and the Obama administration knew about it. This is it took place in 2011 or something, but I found out about it in 2017.

60:40

Sam Westrop

And the Obama administration knew about it and essentially helped them cover it up, this transfer of public money through World Vision to an al Qaeda to a Bin Laden linked charity. Just a few years later, World Vision turned out their their main guy in Gaza was actually a senior Hamas member who was diverting World Vision funds to Hamas. And it's not just them. Catholic Relief Services funds Hamas proxies. Yep.

61:02

Sam Westrop

All sorts of Christian aid in The UK. You know, it's just across and even even Jewish groups, you know, I have come across Jewish community foundations giving money to pro Hamas causes. And not for a second do I think that anyone in that community foundation wants to give a pro homosexuals money Yep. It's because they don't pay attention. They don't pay attention to the fact that extremists manipulate and exploit charitable infrastructure.

61:26

Sam Westrop

So I wanna see faith groups just more aware of this question. I want them to I want to see them operating more like banks and aware that they have to derisk every one of their financial operations. And that when they're moving money to places around the world, they need to investigate whom that might benefit from a different ideology, from a dangerous ideology. It also extends to interfaith. For many years, Islamist groups have exploited interfaith initiatives.

61:56

Sam Westrop

So this is more a problem in Europe than here because in Europe, a lot of the interfaith work is publicly funded, but it's still a problem here. Islamists use interfaith to sanitize their operations and to legitimize themselves as leaders of that community. Too many rabbis, too many priests are willing to share a platform with someone who, yes, as I mentioned it before, will say nice things on stage, but then in private, say something else. And it does a lot more damage than people realize. It really helps cement these people as as as the perceived leaders of communities.

62:28

Sam Westrop

It gives Islamism control over Muslim community. So yes, in general, I want faith groups to be more attuned to the threat and to engage with us. My experience with the Mormon church is that you point out these problems and they withdraw. They don't engage. They don't discuss.

62:47

Sam Westrop

They feel attacked and they weren't constructive. Is a huge problem. There's got to be open conversation about this problem because we're not just talking about a few grants here and there. We're talking in total across all these different religiously inspired aid charities, hundreds of millions of dollars potentially going to the wrong people. It's it's a big problem.

63:08

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

It really is. The one that I've done extensive research on is the Catholic Charity Network, the relief services and funds. I've investigated a tremendous amount simply because I I do donate to, I think, more Catholic relief services than than most others. I'm familiar with many evangelical frameworks as well. And unfortunately, I know it comes down to funding prioritization within these networks, not allocating enough bodies or let's say AI developed open claw systems to act as a body, or several bodies, yep, to to orchestrate a better a better and more well thought out system of responsibility as it relates to the financial the financial networks.

64:05

Sam Westrop

And a lot of it is the same problem, by the way, that that led USAID. The recent reach

64:11

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Oh, yes.

64:12

Sam Westrop

USAID to fund the streams. Because the current system is that USAID or indeed the Catholic Relief Services or any of the charities we've mentioned will say, well, I want to fund I want to build homes in Gaza for people without shelter. Fundamentally a noble idea. So I will use this local partner to do it. And who is a local partner?

64:30

Sam Westrop

Well, in the case of Catholic Relief Services, it was the Beyadere Association, which is a Gazan charity run by Hamas members. In fact, the son of Ismail Haniyeh, the October 7 architect, attends this group's events. Interesting. So Catholic Relief Services gives money to this group to build to build houses. And so that money then frees up money for Hamas to spend on weapons.

64:54

Sam Westrop

It helps Hamas fundraise. It helps Hamas. Now what I would want to see USAID have done or Catholic Relief Services have done or any of these charities is said, I wanna work with this charity. Who who are its leaders? What do they believe?

65:07

Sam Westrop

Who are its events? Has it had any contact with a designated terrorist organization? A five minute Google search would have stopped that funding from happening. And then they could have found someone else, an alternative, a different charity, someone who wasn't inviting Hamas leaders to its board meetings or the son of of Ismail Haniyeh to its its event. It's actually quite easy to derisk the charitable space.

65:33

Sam Westrop

What it fundamentally entails is not relying on a single government rule just to whitewash all your activities as as okay. It takes proactive investigation just to say, there any risk here that this work, however benevolent the intention is, will end up funding the wrong people. That's all I want these these groups to be asking themselves.

65:55

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Do you have a framework for said organisations to follow this derisking pattern? Do you have documentation for them to actually follow a a system?

66:07

Sam Westrop

We do. And in fact, there's there's a new framework being developed at the moment. The the idea is the office of inspector general at at certain government agencies will be able to employ this and hope is that it will spread to the private sector as as well. What I would really like to see is a dedicated semigovernmental body that serves as I think, as I mentioned, like a bank's derisking department. Mhmm.

66:33

Sam Westrop

And, you know, any charity operating in an area of the world where Islamist terror operates can go to this body and say, hey. I wanna work with this local partner. Is there any is there anything wrong with this this group? That you know, this requires, though, buy in from these charities, from these faith groups. They have to be willing to discuss these issues, and they've been very reticent so far.

66:52

Sam Westrop

So I'm hoping we can we we we can change that. But, look, this is an enormous problem, and it's not just us saying it. It's foreign government saying it. It's The United Muslim Government saying it. The United Arab Emirates has been warning about this problem for years.

67:05

Sam Westrop

It's the Israeli government. It's governments around the world from Australia to London who are constantly having to investigate the fact that their charitable infrastructure is being used to subsidize terror. This is a global crisis.

67:18

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Right.

67:19

Sam Westrop

But any big NGOs here in The US seem seem death to to to its existence. So, yes, I have I have a lot of work to do on this on this issue.

67:26

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

On the dismantling of USAID, Pete Morocco is is a friend. And have you worked with people at the federal level to work to implement this said body of people? Have you been placed in touch with persons at the federal level, senators, congressional persons to begin just the baseline conversation?

68:00

Sam Westrop

So we're a five zero one c three, the Middle East Forum, and we so we we don't side with any political party. But, yes, we speak to legislators and government figures no matter who is in the White House.

68:11

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

That's right.

68:11

Sam Westrop

That's right. And as you should. States states. Certainly within the last few years, there has been a greater number of conversations as the issue has come back into the news again, especially with the closure of USAID and and the realization that, you know, much of the public conversation around that closure was was in fact based on our research showing that so much money went to bad bad groups. So we've had a lot of useful conversations since since then.

68:37

Sam Westrop

So, yes, our work extends not just to trying to get government to set up these bodies or or or enact policy or enforce the law, but also new legislation to advance congressional inquiries to to set up things like the Commission on on Islamism. No. There's a there's a lot we're doing with with federal and state governments across across the the country. It would be very helpful given that I have the advantage of your viewership right now. It would be very helpful if your viewers could reach out to their representatives, both state and federal, and urge them to work with groups like ours and others who are focused on this issue.

69:20

Sam Westrop

Too often, the problem is constituents will make a lot of noise about a problem. They'll talk about EPIC. They'll talk about radicals in the local area, but they won't but they must and they should also push their legislators towards particular solutions. And so some of the solutions I mentioned on the show, I think, are really worth your viewers bringing up with their legislators. Talk about defunding these groups, talk about additional designations, and talk about making sure that government enforces existing law to prosecute where possible.

69:51

Sam Westrop

Your help with this does it's so much more efficient than I think people realise. Officers are so much more willing to talk with us when they've received a dozen, a 100, a thousand letters from their constituents within the past few months about that issue. It really makes things possible both at D and D. C. But also down down in Austin as well.

70:12

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Perfect. Then I will make sure that I accompany this this launch of the show with an article as well very simply tying together that course of action and that call to action for our readers, our viewers, and our listeners because I am with you in that this is a very, very underrepresented space, especially in the media. So we will do what we can to fight with you and to ensure that our our state, our country, our families are are not compromised. Thank you so much for the work that you do, Sam. Is there anything else that you want to impart or leave our viewers and listeners with as we wind down this particular interview?

71:02

Sam Westrop

Well, you can always follow our work at emmyforum.org. You'll find hundreds of investigative articles on ISMA's networks across the country, so I always welcome new readers. But so long as you're you're planning on helping us with the legislature, I would also ask that your viewers tell us about what's happening in your area. You know, I I track 8,000 organizations across The United States, both and that's both, therefore, good and bad, Islamist and and and none. But but the the Islamic infrastructure is constantly this country is constantly changing, and so it requires a constant level of new data and new understanding.

71:47

Sam Westrop

So the more information I get from you locally, the better I can understand all these networks, identify the good guys and fight the bad guys. So, you know, send us information about what's happening in your area and it really does make our work a little easier. There are other groups you might want to consider following on this subject. I particularly encourage you to watch the videos of memory, M E M R I, They they translate Urdu and Arabic language sermons into English. So you we talked about this public private divide between what's said, and memory helps expose that duplicity.

72:23

Sam Westrop

But then also there are individual activists you'll find often giving podcasts at the Middle East Forum or writing for our journals who I think you should follow as as well. I'll end with this. As I said, there is a resurgent interest in this subject over the last year or so, but it's unfocused. It obsesses not wrongly, it obsesses on things like epic or on the Muslim Brotherhood. The problem is broader.

72:46

Sam Westrop

So the more you can read, the more groups and networks you can sort of understand and track, the more you can do to help organizations like ours and the more you can do to convince legislators to tackle this this enormous issue that goes far beyond the the state of Texas. So, no, thank you so much for the invitation to speak here and thank you for the time. And I hope to hear from your listeners over the next few

73:12

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

You most certainly will, Sam. This is not the last time that we speak. And again, I just I'm very grateful for your time, for your knowledge, for the impartation of that knowledge, and I look forward to working with you in the future.

73:26

Sam Westrop

Absolutely. Thank you.

73:27

Sarah Zubiate Bennett

Thank you.

Episode Timeline

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Episode Timeline

Full Transcript

Fight for The Truth

The Dallas Express reports what Legacy Media won’t.