Get the New and Improved DX App Download Now
26 Feb 2026
Divided We Fall: Can We Disagree Without Destroying Each Other?

Do political conversations in your life get heated fast? Have you seen the name calling and the us versus them mentality coming from both sides? Division feels loud right now, but it does not have to define how we engage.

In this episode of Let’s Talk Local, we show that it is still possible to disagree without being disagreeable. This is a candid conversation between people who see the world differently and are still willing to sit at the same table.

We dive into some of the biggest topics dominating headlines and dinner tables right now including immigration, ICE enforcement methods, H1B visas, the Trump administration, and more. Joining the discussion are Chris Putnam, CEO of Dallas Express, Kellen McGovern Jones, Senior Investigative Reporter at DX, and Shanon Murphy, producer of the show.

It is thoughtful. It is honest. At times it is intense. But above all, it is respectful.

If you are tired of the noise but still care deeply about the issues shaping our country, this episode will challenge you, encourage you, and maybe even inspire you to lead better conversations in your own circle. Tune in and join us.

0:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Host
Chris Putnam
Guest
Shanon Murphy
Producer
Kellen McGovern Jones
Guest

Episode Timeline

All Episodes
12:29
Ideology versus respect
16:16
How does Chris, the Dallas Express CEO, ensure that his writers avoid telling only one side of the story?
22:57
An in depth conversation about H1-B visas and the abuse seen within the system
30:45
The dynamic of cities starting to “look” a certain way
40:04
Does a left of center voter (Shanon) disagree with what the right of center voters (Chris and Kellen) are saying?
50:21
Sexual abuse in schools and where you can check your child’s school
53:11
Is the humanitarian lens on immigration naive?
67:36
Where’s the balance between loving your neighbor and border enforcement?
76:59
How can someone decide when an issue is real and when it’s being emotionally manufactured?
84:50
Closing words from each guest
Subscribe and Listen on
Join host Sarah Zubiate Bennett on Let’s Talk Local as she uncovers the stories, people, and places shaping Dallas, fostering a stronger and more connected community—let's get to know the real Dallas!

Full Transcript

00:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Before we begin, I wanna be very clear about why we're here and what I'm hoping to do in this conversation. I want everyone listening or watching to understand something important. I respect the people in this room, not just as leaders and friends, but peers and fellow humans. My aim today is deeper than politics. I believe we're living in a time of profound confusion.
00:19
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Confusion that is not accidental. Confusion that is being spoken into the world through media, through algorithms, through rhetoric, and through fear. I see it affecting my friends and family on the right and on the left alike. I see it affecting families, friendships, churches, and communities. I pray daily for discernment.
00:37
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I pray for humility of conscience, for humility to admit that information I receive, the algorithms I see, and the conclusions I draw may not be complete and may at times be wrong. And I extend that same grace to people who vote differently than I do because I believe they too are navigating a world flooded with distortion. Above all, I wanna be very clear about my anchor. I'm trying to honor God in how these conversations are held. Our faith calls us not to judge, but to love our neighbor as ourselves.
01:07
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That doesn't mean avoiding hard questions. It means asking them with humility, truth, and love. So today, I want to explore truth without cruelty. I want to ask hard questions without demeaning the person answering them, and I want to model what it looks like to disagree without assuming malice or stupidity. If we leave this conversation understanding one another more clearly, even if we still disagree, then I believe we've done something worthwhile.
01:34
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That is my aim, and I'm grateful you're willing to step into it with me. I am so happy and excited for this interview. This is the first time I'm sitting down with all three of you. Right?
02:00
Chris Putnam
Yeah. That's right.
02:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
So Chris Putnam, the Dallas Express CEO Shannon Murphy, producer of this show and of our sports network
02:12
Chris Putnam
That's right. Our new sports network.
02:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Recently launched. Right? And then our senior investigative reporter, Kellen, who is just crushing it. And I have such a deep respect for each of you. I wanted to make sure that that was certainly clear before we start off.
02:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Only because I'm really wanting to pour into something that I don't know that anyone or everyone is doing. And Chris, I mean, you could have sat on the sidelines. You were a multimillionaire, exited from a wonderful tech company, and then we were introduced to each other essentially just because I it was Aaron, right, that thought that you've got great
02:54
Chris Putnam
I've known Monty for ten years.
02:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. Yeah.
02:55
Chris Putnam
Monty always supported a lot of things that I was doing in politics.
02:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But you did not know that you had a former like, background in journalism.
03:01
Chris Putnam
No. Very few people know that, actually.
03:03
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Who would?
03:04
Chris Putnam
Yeah. I mean, that was my original plan. Mhmm. In college, I was in broadcast journalism major. I wrote for the TCU skiff, the student paper there.
03:12
Chris Putnam
That was my passion. And, you know, I got married at an early age and went to work. Couldn't figure out a way to make money doing that.
03:18
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah.
03:19
Chris Putnam
It's still hard. And except for this guy. And, like yeah. So, like, I was just always passionate about it. I've always had a perspective on, you know, media and what was wrong with it in particular in the last ten years.
03:32
Chris Putnam
And so, yeah, when, you know, I I got the phone call, I was like, yeah. You know? Absolutely. I think what's funny about that story is I got that phone call one afternoon. I think it was at breakfast with Molly the next day.
03:43
Chris Putnam
And That's right. Ten minutes into it Hired. That was it. Yeah.
03:47
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Hired. And I'm so glad because, as you know, it takes thick skin to do what you're doing. I guess what all of us are doing in many respects because Shannon here, she comes from the formerly Kid Craddock show. Right? You're a celebrity, local celebrity here.
04:02
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. Psycho Shannon, but she's definitely not psycho. She's not psycho. For the record, an exceptional human being, and she is kind of in a pot of people who think and vote very differently from her, which I applaud you for having thick skin and for being a voice that I believe I very much need to hear frequently. So thank you.
04:26
Shanon Murphy
Well, thank you for having me.
04:27
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. Thank you.
04:27
Shanon Murphy
I know it takes a lot of trust.
04:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
It it So But you're easy to trust.
04:31
Shanon Murphy
Well, thank you.
04:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You really are. And now, Kellen, our senior investigative reporter, you went to the University of Alabama Alabama. Alabama, master's in
04:42
Kellen Jones
Public administration.
04:43
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Administration and is brilliant. And so I thank you for all of the difficult topics that you constantly tackle with such grace, supported data, and a lot of thoughtful research. You all are great. And with the collective efforts of each of you, now the Dallas Express I mean, we have a White House press pass, which is insane. Are we the only local media outlet?
05:09
Chris Putnam
I'm sure. Well, well, local. Depends on what local means. Because as you know, like, our other two major local outlets are both New York and New Jersey owned.
05:18
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
05:19
Chris Putnam
And so Hearst might, I'm sure they do.
05:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yep.
05:22
Chris Putnam
But I don't know if there's a Dallas based reporter up there. Sure. So yeah. Sure. We're definitely a very we're it's we're a very unique outlet in that sense.
05:30
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. Because a lot of them are monsters.
05:32
Kellen Jones
Mhmm.
05:32
Chris Putnam
Right? The big guys. Course. CNN, etcetera. Of course.
05:35
Chris Putnam
LA Times, New York Times. Yeah. So it's we're we're unique in that sense, and you feel it, you know, when you're there and surrounded by all that. Mhmm.
05:43
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And, yeah, I'm just so proud. I'm so excited of all that you've been able to do. Your business process absolutely shows.
05:50
Chris Putnam
Thank you.
05:50
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
It does. Because now we have millions of impressions on our social posts.
05:56
Chris Putnam
About 40,000,000 last month.
05:58
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Exactly. So I'm gonna start, I guess, with you, Chris. Do you feel the weight of that responsibility of what that means to have that type of reach?
06:10
Chris Putnam
Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, again, from my evaluation or just my personal critique of what media had to come
06:18
Kellen Jones
Mhmm.
06:19
Chris Putnam
You know, I felt like the the single biggest element that was missing a lot of times was the truth. Just the truth. Mhmm. We went through, you know
06:27
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
06:28
Chris Putnam
And lies about COVID origins and
06:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
06:31
Chris Putnam
And Russiagate, which was totally total fiction. The the second Trump impeachment was about Ukraine. It was really about the president at that time trying to figure out, like, what the connections were between the Biden family and Ukraine while this money was flowing back to their foundation, things like that. There's this example after example, as you know. And it just felt like the the what I call the lying legacy media, but some people refer to as the mainstream media Mhmm.
06:57
Chris Putnam
Has just gotten so lost. In in terms of promoting one party's political agenda. And I tell people all the time, like, we're not trying to be the Dallas Fort Worth red state or Breitbart. Mhmm. We're not that ideological, actually.
07:14
Chris Putnam
But truth is sacrosanct, and truth is what's important. And that's what I'm really proud of. I think that because we've done so many stories that people didn't wanna like Mhmm. But but, you know, they found the truth in it, that's what built our credibility that's gotten us here.
07:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay. Yeah. Thank you for that perspective. And diverse viewpoints, I think, is essential to allow an organization to thrive and run. Do you believe that there is any truth that lies in the left of center?
07:48
Chris Putnam
Absolutely.
07:49
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay.
07:50
Chris Putnam
Oh, a 100%. And as you know, like, some of our biggest stories have been about other Republicans. Mhmm. There absolutely is. And the the problem is people nowadays, particularly if they're digital consumers of news, just get trapped in these algorithmic prisons.
08:05
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. I know lots of people that literally on both sides that just can't see the other side at all because it's never presented to them. Yeah. And that's actually, like, a shame. It's terrible.
08:15
Chris Putnam
Because there's there's plenty of common ground for Americans to agree on. I think the polarization is horrible. Have plenty of theories as to why. But, you know, that's one contributing factor. Mhmm.
08:25
Chris Putnam
You know, we're being fed what they think that we wanna consume.
08:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
08:29
Chris Putnam
And then you literally don't even see forget being able to interpret the other side. You don't even see it. Mhmm. A great use case was this situation last week with with Jasmine Crockett and Talarico Yep. In the Colbert show.
08:43
Chris Putnam
Yep. They just flat out lied to everybody. And, I mean, the the mainstream media about the circumstances of them not publishing the Talarico interview was an equal time issue, as you know. Instead, they blamed the president and the FCC. And, I mean, the mainstream media ran with it like crazy, instantly.
08:59
Chris Putnam
Yep. No time to filter or investigate whether it's true. They just run with it, and that's the point. And so, you know, it happens on the right as well. There's plenty of there's a lot of influence, fact, that are just a problem.
09:13
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. You know, they're inflammatory and they do the same things. Yep. They're they're reactive because they're just trying to, you know, fish for clicks.
09:19
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
09:20
Chris Putnam
But what happens is it's entertaining to people, and so
09:22
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
they just entertaining.
09:23
Chris Putnam
Yeah. They just get trapped there and can't we can't see each other.
09:27
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
09:27
Chris Putnam
Does that make sense?
09:28
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course. Of course. And, Shannon, how do you believe that your consumption of media has, I guess, has been formed, your algorithms in particular?
09:42
Shanon Murphy
Oh, I'm sure my algorithms are left of center. And it it makes it really hard to decipher truth from from story from fiction. And it's it's yeah. I I I know that I have to do conscious research
09:58
Chris Putnam
Mhmm.
09:58
Shanon Murphy
To see what is what. Yep. Because I don't know what to believe.
10:01
Chris Putnam
Do you think that's healthy or not?
10:03
Shanon Murphy
Which which part of
10:04
Chris Putnam
have to do the research.
10:05
Shanon Murphy
Of course not. It it means that we don't have trust in what's being fed to
10:09
Chris Putnam
us. That's true.
10:10
Shanon Murphy
And it's disgusting.
10:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. It is. And it it breaks my heart just from the the standpoint alone that I mean, thankfully, I have not felt any friction in my family. Maybe with one friend, kind of a distant friend, but most of my close friends who vote differently than I do, they're wonderful and very open to the fact that we do share a lot in common, especially on the faith side. If any of you are comfortable saying, do you have any type of identification with respect to your religion?
10:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Like, I always say that I'm a Catholic, but then also a more Well, yeah, I'm Catholic. I'm Catholic. That's it. I'm
10:56
Chris Putnam
also There's Catholic and not Catholic.
10:58
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
No. No. But I'm saying I I go to Protestant church with my husband. I go to the cowboy church. I go to fellowship.
11:03
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I listen to fellowship. So I listen to it pretty regularly, like, you know, non Catholic type of messages, especially since my brother-in-law has had a lot to do with my recent faith formation and awakening. But, yeah, what about each of you? Methodist. Methodist.
11:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay. Since birth.
11:22
Shanon Murphy
Got you. Got you. Raised Catholic, but currently confused.
11:25
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
11:27
Chris Putnam
Raised Catholic Baptist and have been for decades.
11:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Baptist. Got it. So I was nondenominational and Catholic, essentially, as I was raised. But then in college, I I I went and I got confirmed.
11:43
Chris Putnam
My my oldest son, he's 27, he's doing that now. Interesting. Yeah. His mother's family is Catholic, but not practicing. But he's somehow been drawn to it.
11:54
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. Yeah. So he's starting that process.
11:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Interesting. Okay. And I the only really reason that I'm saying it's interesting is because I believe that there's fragmentation, not just in our social circles and in people who vote differently, but even amongst people who come from faith based institutions. And I really pray that there's some type of ideology moving forward that allows for a new awakening and appreciation for people across all different types of denominations.
12:28
Chris Putnam
I don't think it's ideology as much as it's respect. For sure. Mutual respect.
12:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
12:32
Chris Putnam
And that's what we're missing now.
12:34
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
12:34
Chris Putnam
I actually live in a really crazy diverse neighborhood, you know, kind of the hipster part of Dallas.
12:39
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh, yeah.
12:40
Chris Putnam
And I live near near near the Bishop Arts District and Oh, that's right. Live in Oak Cliff. Yeah.
12:44
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
12:45
Chris Putnam
And I I am surrounded by people that are different than me, and I really enjoy that. Mhmm. You know, what's hard is when these people are just so in it it it again, both sides. Uh-huh. When people become so grounded and tolerant in their beliefs that they think the other side is evil.
12:58
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. And, again, there's plenty of things we find common ground on. We know this collectively because of the work that we do here, crime.
13:07
Shanon Murphy
Mhmm.
13:07
Chris Putnam
In Dallas, mean, at the end of the day, people just wanna feel safe in their homes and neighborhoods.
13:11
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And it's so misconstrued. They're flat out lies.
13:14
Chris Putnam
Well, somehow we've politicized crime.
13:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
13:16
Chris Putnam
That's right. Which is crazy to me, but we have.
13:19
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right. And we shouldn't.
13:21
Chris Putnam
Yeah.
13:22
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Have each of you, at any point in your lives, have you read the declaration of independence?
13:28
Chris Putnam
Oh, sure. I had memorize it.
13:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh, yeah. Okay. Definitely. So okay. And you did you were you raised saying or stating the pledge of allegiance?
13:38
Shanon Murphy
Yes.
13:38
Kellen Jones
Yeah. Of course.
13:39
Shanon Murphy
Without the God part, though. Really? With the with the Texas pledge, there was no God. Interesting.
13:47
Chris Putnam
Yeah. Honor the Texas flag.
13:48
Shanon Murphy
I pledge allegiance to the Texas one and indivisible. That's how we learned it. But I've I've noticed going to my nephews and my niece's school that they now have God in there.
13:57
Kellen Jones
They added they added it when
13:59
Shanon Murphy
I in
13:59
Chris Putnam
elementary school. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's been a big effort in the state legislature, you know. We had Mays Middle in here last week, actually, to reinject some Judeo Christian elements back into public schools.
14:09
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right. That's exactly right. Okay. And and I'm asking all of these things because I wanna make sure that we're all coming from a baseline that is one of, I guess, education that most people have not had. I believe that most people circulating around us have not read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, things of that sort.
14:31
Chris Putnam
Am I wrong? I've always said there should be like, middle school, maybe even elementary. There should be, like, an entire at least one semester dedicated to the constitution. Yes. History of the constitution, the constitution itself, various interpretations.
14:43
Chris Putnam
It doesn't have to take one interpretation or the other. Mhmm. But, yeah, it's it's something that we're absolutely lacking.
14:50
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. And it's interesting for me as a woman of faith because I read everything out there now, especially with respect to a lot of these topics that you're tackling, Kellen, so well, by the way, with respect to immigration. I'll just leave it at immigration for now. But the whole treating our neighbor, right, loving our neighbor, treating them with respect, I do believe that there is a lot that I may believe as a woman of faith that a lot of the people who vote similarly to me don't believe. And I don't know if that's right or wrong.
15:34
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Actually, I know it's right because of the comments that I read on these different So how do you, Chris, as the leader of the Dallas Express, and maybe you can weigh in on this, Kellen, because your writings are very indicative of fair and balanced thought, how do you make sure that that exact space that we criticize legacy media for, that pervasive single mindedness, this narrative, do you make all of the people that write articles find the reverse argument for what it is that they're in fact writing about?
16:16
Chris Putnam
Well, I'll say this. First of all, back to what you said initially. It is a it's a I feel the responsibility of it.
16:22
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
16:23
Chris Putnam
And I feel the responsibility of the truth
16:24
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
16:25
Chris Putnam
Regardless of who or what we're covering. And we have another sacrosanct principle that whoever we're writing about or whatever we're writing about, we seek to get the other side of the story. We beat it into these guys. Mhmm. You know, get the quote.
16:38
Chris Putnam
Don't just email them. Call them. If you get them on the phone, and we will quote whoever that is completely accurately. Not out of context. Right?
16:47
Chris Putnam
And so a lot of what's perceived as our editorial perspective is grounded in the fact that we just do a lot of stories that a lot of the far left outlets that are mainstream won't even touch. Right? Yeah. And so yeah. I mean, we absolutely try to, you know, have that kind of balance.
17:08
Chris Putnam
It's just it gets reflected differently. And what happens is when you're a new media or independent media source, the the factory, the the mainstream factory just absolutely rejects you because you're not in their club. And the problem with that factory is, and I think Elon Musk had some data on this recently Mhmm. 90% of political donations from journalists or the media community, you know, come from the left. That's just a fact.
17:33
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. And so when people see something different, they kind of react. Some react visceral to it. It's been very good for us, of course Mhmm. Because there was obviously this huge appetite out there.
17:42
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You know? Sure. For the voice
17:43
Chris Putnam
that was not represented. Yeah. That had been disenfranchised. And that's part not all, but that's part of the reason, you know, the the Star Telegram has been bankrupt once and now is owned by New Jersey hedge fund, and Dallas Morning News is losing $80,000,000 a year before they got purchased by Hurt. That's the reason their readership is dying.
18:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And how is it, again, kind of more specifically and pointed, within the newsroom, do you have an exercise, Kellen, that he has you do, or you guys can tell me this, that says, okay, here is what we're gonna be writing about. Right? Go out and do active research to ensure that you're well versed on any type of opposing viewpoint because that's kind of the tenant of our founding. We always try and get comments from people on both sides of a situation in which we're writing about. People don't always comment, but that's a practice that I love.
18:39
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But what else do we do within the newsroom to ensure that there is not a one-sided voice that is
18:48
Chris Putnam
first, then I'll Sure.
18:49
Kellen Jones
Yeah. Well, when I went through orientation at the Dallas Express a few years ago, what we were instructed to do, which was a really good practice that I still follow, was whatever side is getting to speak the most in the story, at the very minimum, give the opposing side at least 50 words, which can be a paragraph or two in a story, so that the other side is represented, and give them the opportunity. Give them a fair chance to speak. Mhmm.
19:16
Chris Putnam
And you know from the use case you just described with the PPP loan, that didn't happen.
19:20
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course not. Yeah. It was horrible. Mhmm. But yes.
19:24
Kellen Jones
And part of that is, you know, reaching out in a timely manner Mhmm. To give an opportunity to the other side to respond. Mhmm. And also, you would see this a lot in the reporting during COVID. The outlets became stenographers for the press releases from the CDC, And whatever the CDC said was gospel.
19:45
Kellen Jones
And so a source was treated as an authority purely because it had a big name. And my personal philosophy is not to treat anything as if it's God, unless it's God speaking, but I don't quote God in
19:57
Chris Putnam
some to the situation locally that's existed for years with the Dallas Morning News and Citi. Mhmm. As you know, as a you know, look at what we just went through in the last two years with Hero. That it was denial. Denial.
20:10
Chris Putnam
Flat out denial that there was a crime problem downtown.
20:12
Shanon Murphy
Right. That's
20:14
Chris Putnam
Monty was a leading voice in saying, hey. Look. We gotta fix this or we're in trouble. We saw the AT and T thing coming. In fact, we were we were reporting the likelihood of their leaving downtown.
20:23
Chris Putnam
I got a cease and desist that I'm probably gonna frame because we were absolutely right about that as well because we have good sources.
20:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And remember, I I think I wrote an article about it. The Mavs leaving or something? And the comments on there were appalling.
20:38
Kellen Jones
Yeah.
20:38
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And it was one of the last articles I think that I had written, and I'm like
20:42
Chris Putnam
Well, a year later, as you know Yes. Hero, not even a year, months later
20:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
20:47
Chris Putnam
You know, Downtown Dowsing commissions this Boston Consulting Group report that basically says everything we've been saying. Mhmm. That, you know, we're at risk of really, you know, killing downtown if we don't get the crime and homelessness situation
20:59
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's exactly address.
21:00
Chris Putnam
And at least they heard you. They heard us, you know, and have started to do that. We're a long way from doing it. I think the the situation downtown as it relates to crime is as, you know or at least in terms of occupancy
21:13
Kellen Jones
Mhmm.
21:13
Chris Putnam
Is as bad as it's been. But there's hope. There's there's lots of things we could do, particularly with y'all street growing so tremendously here and even the things in New York or, you know, with Mamdami are gonna influence what happens here. Yeah. Didn't mean to cut you off.
21:27
Kellen Jones
No. I I made my point.
21:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
No. No. No. But but but it's very helpful. Shannon, would you agree with that?
21:33
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That whenever you're on the weekly calls, do you think that there is decent representation? Do you do you even contribute to the weekly newsroom conversations?
21:45
Shanon Murphy
Are you on those calls? They don't ask for my opinion on that stuff. Likely so.
21:50
Chris Putnam
She checks us, though.
21:51
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You do?
21:52
Chris Putnam
Oh, yeah. Oh, that's fine. Know when we're off base. I I and I ask her.
21:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You know what? I do too always. Always. And that's why I always tell her, you know, you gotta hold me accountable, Shannon, and she does.
22:04
Shanon Murphy
And I I poke fun at you guys kind of, and I just say, I am a Democrat surrounded by Republicans. I don't know We have a feeling. What I did to get here, but this is me.
22:14
Chris Putnam
I always I always tell people, I I don't care what your party affiliation is. You know? What I want are talented people who understand what we're doing and why and wanna be a part of it. That's what makes the culture. Yep.
22:27
Chris Putnam
You know? That's what makes the culture.
22:28
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And it's it's beautiful. I'm gonna pivot over slightly to a little more policy here and topics that you're actually writing about. With respect to h one b's, just visas in general, but I know that they're meant to supplement and to not replace American workers. Do you specifically see that promise breaking down in practice from what you've been writing?
22:59
Kellen Jones
Well, the h one b visa, for listeners that maybe aren't familiar with it, is a temporary nonimmigrant visa category that lasts for six years of employment. Although there's ways to make it last longer or shorter. And there's about 80,000 visas that go to the private sector every year, and then an unlimited number that goes to the public nonprofit sector, so like universities. Mhmm. Right?
23:22
Kellen Jones
And the idea, what was sold to the public in 1990 when both parties came together to create the h one b visa, was that there are certain shortages in the labor market that must be filled. Mhmm. And so we have to open up America's labor market so that tech or medicine can have the workers that they need. Mhmm. But that is not what's worked out in practice over the thirty something years since the Immigration Act of 1990 took effect.
23:52
Kellen Jones
What we see in many cases are Americans who already have jobs being replaced by foreign workers. This is Purely
24:01
Chris Putnam
on the basis of labor arbitrage.
24:03
Kellen Jones
Purely on the basis of labor arbitrage. There was a working paper we covered a few weeks ago at the Dallas Express, and about the average h one b worker will be paid about 16% less to their similarly qualified American counterpart.
24:17
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
24:18
Kellen Jones
So there's an incentive here with labor arbitrage. And some of the biggest spreaders of disinformation, I hate to use that term, but untrue information, we could say, about the h one b visa are the Department of Labor. Mhmm. Lori Chavez Dremer, who's the secretary of the Department of Labor, said a few weeks ago, you must advertise a job to an American before you can go and hire an h one b worker. That's not true.
24:43
Kellen Jones
The American Immigration Council said that the h one b visa exists to fill labor shortages. Mhmm. That's what we were told, but that's not actually in the text of the law that there must be a labor shortage before a company can go and get a visa. I'll use just one more example. Last fall, when the whole country was kinda having a battle over the merits of the h one b visa, of course, tech was still consuming the most.
25:09
Kellen Jones
All the top 10 h one b users
25:11
Chris Putnam
That's right.
25:12
Kellen Jones
Are tech companies.
25:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And Excluding universities and such. Right?
25:16
Kellen Jones
No. Including universities. Including. Yes. Interesting.
25:19
Kellen Jones
When you when you put them all together, tech still comes to the top. So I think Amazon is the biggest user, and they've got, like, 45,000 over the last five years.
25:28
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
25:29
Chris Putnam
Here locally, it's KPMG. Right?
25:30
Kellen Jones
Yes. Mhmm. Woah. You've memorized my reports. I think that was in last week's report.
25:35
Kellen Jones
Yes. KPMG. But at the same time that the tech industries are consuming all of these visas, one in four computer science majors, one in four computer engineers, and similar tech related jobs faced unemployment or underemployment. One in four. The college degree, the American college degree, has really become nothing of value because unemployment for a young college educated person today is the same as a young non college educated person, and yet we bring in more foreign labor every year.
26:11
Kellen Jones
And so that's part of the concern workers are facing. On the employer side, of course, these foreign workers are desirable because they're cheap and they're compliant. They rarely sue, and they have to put up with whatever conditions are given to them, good or bad, because they have to maintain their company's sponsorship to stay here in The US for the entire time they're here, you know, and then they have to keep it as they go through the green to get the green card process.
26:40
Chris Putnam
And, Sarah, this is one of the most palpable issues right now in North Texas. Mhmm. Because what's happening is we're seeing certain communities that happen to be located close to these major Texans. Frisco is an example. Mhmm.
26:52
Chris Putnam
McKinney, Southlake. 20% of this the population, the overall population in Southlake now is East Indian. Mhmm. It's over 30% in Frisco, I believe. And so people are seeing their communities fundamentally transform.
27:05
Chris Putnam
And I and I think it's a fair question. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a fair question of whether we've gone too far with it. We know there's abuses. Kellen did an outstanding series on Dallas ISD. How 300 plus h one b employees there.
27:20
Chris Putnam
They spent millions of dollars.
27:21
Kellen Jones
It's about 1,200 h one b employees over five years.
27:24
Chris Putnam
There you go. I understated it. Yeah. What's ironic about that is a lot of them are foreign nationals brought in to teach kids English. Mhmm.
27:31
Chris Putnam
So have foreign nationals teaching other foreign nationals how to speak English, which I think is ironic. But there's a lot of other examples. And I have relevant experience here. I came from the tech industry, and we had our Indian offshore development facility like every business does.
27:45
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
27:46
Chris Putnam
And it's not true that a lot of these job skills are that specialized. There are some.
27:51
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
27:52
Chris Putnam
But it's not as universal as it's been adopted. That's just a fact. And so the question is, in in with respect to that community in particular, they they get the overwhelming majority
28:04
Kellen Jones
of these age groups. 2%. Yeah. 72 go to India and 12% goes
28:08
Chris Putnam
to China.
28:09
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Also very smart.
28:10
Kellen Jones
That's true.
28:11
Chris Putnam
And their colleagues are extremely smart. And they're they're they're also very organized
28:16
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yep.
28:16
Chris Putnam
In terms of how they work that system. Correct. Yeah. And it it takes care of itself in a lot of ways.
28:23
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And you know what's interesting? I grew up in El Paso, Texas and Juarez. So for me, white people, and strangely enough, I did not consider myself to be white until I guess I learned that I'm very white passing. Either way, I knew that white people, white Americans were the minority out there. Absolutely worse.
28:52
Chris Putnam
We are in Texas generally. Well, yes. Yes. But
28:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
what's interesting is that, you know, I come to places like DFW, and there's so much diversity here. Like, a ton with respect to El Paso where it's predominantly Hispanic. So again, white people, black people, that's very much the minority out there. Indian Americans up here, that was one of the things that I found enriching and really cool about coming to DFW, was the fact that there were so many different types of people versus where I lived. Do you have a preference for how these cities I'll start with you, Shannon, with respect to how these cities should look, diversity wise, should there be a certain amount of Asians, white people, black people, brown people?
29:58
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Like
29:59
Shanon Murphy
Like a race quota kind
30:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
of Yeah. And this is a question I'm gonna be asking maybe all of you because I I don't know. Because whenever you say, you know, these neighborhoods start to look really different, for me, I'm like, in my brain, I think, is that just a neighborhood changing? Because where I'm from, there's all brown people. Like, should it be should should
30:23
Chris Putnam
In Highland Park?
30:24
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
No. No. Okay. Not Highland Park. I'm saying where I'm from in El Paso.
30:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Right? It's there's primarily brown people. And now in Highland Park, I feel no different from anyone, although I know that my background is very, very unique from those who who surround me in that city.
30:46
Shanon Murphy
Mhmm. I think we should be as colorful as we can be, honestly. I don't know of a better way to say it. Yeah. Growing up, you hear that The United States is a smelting pot that's made of all these cultures.
30:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
30:58
Shanon Murphy
And that is just ingrained in my head. Like, that's what I think America should be.
31:02
Chris Putnam
It's not a race or a religion or a gender identity issue. It's an assimilation issue.
31:08
Kellen Jones
Mhmm.
31:08
Chris Putnam
You know, it it that's the I think that's the key thing, and that's what people are struggling with right now. Mhmm. You know, let's take the the the high concentration of East Indians in North Texas now. Right? These people don't commit crimes.
31:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
31:21
Chris Putnam
Not at the same rates that other demographic groups
31:25
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
do.
31:25
Chris Putnam
As you pointed out, they work hard. They're smart. Mhmm. That's not but but they're also importing their culture here.
31:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
31:33
Chris Putnam
And not necessarily embracing American culture. And that doesn't mean you're, you know, dressed in the red, white, and blue when the hockey team plays. But I think that's what, you know, people are wrestling with a little bit. Mhmm. That get that conversation gets even stickier when you talk about the Muslim community and what's going on there and the proliferation of moss and things like epic city, and there's they're all over the place.
31:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
31:56
Chris Putnam
That's a trickier conversation.
31:58
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
See, I don't think it's tricky at all because for me, I want the form of government that I vote for. I want that to be the form of government that operates this free country because we're still free, and I will fight for that freedom. But if there are legal structures in these religious spaces or institutions that, in their belief system, circumvent the powers of The United States, that's when I have a problem. I'm like, I will fight tooth and nail to make sure that The United States Of America's founding items are what breathe freedom into the system still today. Right.
32:47
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That is when when I find a problem. How how do you find that it's sticky for some people?
32:52
Chris Putnam
Well, I think I'm being polite. Okay. Okay.
32:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I'm like, it's not sticky for me.
32:58
Chris Putnam
That particular use case, all you have to do is look at what happened in parts of Western Europe. I spent a lot of time in London.
33:04
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Uh-huh.
33:04
Chris Putnam
What has happened in Minnesota? Look. There there's a there that London. Community is very purposely, and they're not even shy about talking about it, you know, populating these areas where they weren't there historically for the express purpose of taking over local governments and assuming political power. Yep.
33:23
Chris Putnam
I don't know how any critically thinking person can see it any other way, anybody that's thinking intellectually, honestly at all. And that's why the issue has risen to where it is. The legal solutions are a little trickier, you know, in order to deal with it. But, yeah, I you know, I it's again, it's not me saying it. It's them it's that community saying that it's you know, they're they're they don't believe a lot of what we believe, you know, constitutionally.
33:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
33:53
Chris Putnam
And they're as discriminatory from a religious point of view as anybody out there.
33:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's exactly right.
33:57
Chris Putnam
And so the, you know, the I I think so a lot of people are having a pretty visceral reaction to that. Very different from h one b. Mhmm. You know, again
34:04
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's why I wanted to draw that that line.
34:06
Chris Putnam
But keep going. What's really interesting is there's more real legal action being taken on that front, and and those folks aren't necessarily taking as many jobs away, you know, for Americans as h one b's are. Mhmm. But the the interesting political dynamic that people need to understand is a lot of business leaders
34:26
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
34:26
Chris Putnam
Support h one b. Yep. So a lot of politicians don't wanna talk about it even when it's staring them in the face. And I think that's what we're seeing, you know, the the the temperature go up in parts of Texas because they're just not incentivized to do anything but continue to go along with it Mhmm. While it fundamentally transforms these communities.
34:44
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. Go ahead, Kellen.
34:46
Kellen Jones
On the diversity element, you asked about communities. From an employment perspective, there was some internal documents leaked out of Amazon Whole Foods in, I think, 2018 or so. And what it showed is that the interest in Amazon Whole Foods in diversity wasn't so much that they just loved diversity. It was that if you kind of moneyball the demographics of your labor force, and you get the right amount of, you know, black women and white gay guys and Hispanics and white women and everything, get the right numbers right, they don't unionize. And so from a union perspective, it's very beneficial to not have or to have
35:26
Chris Putnam
a lot of stuff. They don't cooperate or socialize and Whatever it is That's very interesting.
35:31
Kellen Jones
Whatever it is that makes people come together, according to Amazon's internal documents, doesn't quite happen if you get the moneyballed levels of of diversity. So part of talking about diversity, you have to think about unions and labor. You may like the diversity because it may help your bottom line, may help your business. You may not like it because you may wanna belong to a labor union. Back to the h one b.
35:54
Chris Putnam
By the way, just let me know if I could add to that. It's so interesting now that, you know, the president's popularity in the Upper Midwest, right
36:01
Kellen Jones
Mhmm.
36:02
Chris Putnam
Is with a lot of those unionized groups. I had a Teamsters endorsement in my election in 2020. So there's real this is the first time I've actually heard this thesis, but I think they're onto something there.
36:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
36:15
Chris Putnam
That's a bunch of white guys, blue collar guys that are naturally socializing and working very closely together. They share a lot of probably similar values as opposed to having more of this fragmented approach.
36:27
Kellen Jones
Mhmm. The labor unions, of course, JD Vance spoke at the IAFF in 2024, and then the Teamsters spoke at the RNC. And That's a big change. That was a big change. And so certainly, there's a labor element here.
36:44
Kellen Jones
Now back to the h one b. Some of the companies that use the most h one b visas in Texas and across The US, we'll use Tesla as one example, they consume a ton of h one b visas and they are constantly fighting off the UAW.
36:58
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
36:58
Kellen Jones
The UAW and several other labor unions are always trying to organize the Tesla plants. And so far, they haven't been successful. So there's a labor breaking element, both with diversity, according to the corporation's own documents, and to the h one b visa. Now the h one b visa, by law, is not supposed to be used for strike breaking.
37:20
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
37:20
Kellen Jones
So if your workers go on strike, you can't bring in a bunch of foreign workers. However, if you act prophylactically Mhmm. You may be able to bring in workers that are just less inclined to unionization because maybe they don't have the cultural familiarity with it. And then, of course, there's that sponsorship element I mentioned earlier. Just happy to be here.
37:39
Kellen Jones
Happy to be here? Yeah. And how do you sign a union card if you are an h one b worker? Because you've gotta be in your employer's best graces at any moment. And if you lose those best graces because you signed a union card, you can be sent home in the way, like, I can't because I I was born in Fort Worth to American parents.
37:57
Chris Putnam
Yeah. My my concern with h one b is we already have AI. Mhmm. It's fundamentally transforming every industry, and it will continue to.
38:05
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
38:06
Chris Putnam
You know, for example, I think we've furloughed some TSA folks. I mean, how far are we away from having AI machines that eliminate those jobs? At least eliminate a huge precision. That's just one use case. Right?
38:20
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
38:20
Chris Putnam
Now, you know and so if you marry those two things together, a the impact of AI
38:26
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And h
38:26
Chris Putnam
and with h one b. Well, now you've got a society changing situation. Mhmm. One of them we can't do anything about. Technological innovation is just gonna happen.
38:36
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
38:37
Chris Putnam
We have to adapt to society. Workers have to adapt. Kids going to school have to be smart about where they're gonna invest their time and The
38:44
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
future proofs themselves.
38:46
Chris Putnam
But the h one b situation exacerbates that. And back to Kellen's point, I know because I came from the tech industry. Like, would you say the number was one in four?
38:54
Kellen Jones
One in four.
38:55
Chris Putnam
Yeah. Yeah. No. It's significant. Significant.
38:58
Chris Putnam
Like, I know a lot of people who have been directly impacted by it. Again, in job roles that aren't, you know, exclusive or specialized in any way. And so if those two things together, I think, have the potential to fundamentally transform our workforce and by the way, I'm not an advocate for eliminating H-1B. It's like it's like Israel Palestine. They're it's nuanced.
39:22
Chris Putnam
And the problem with nuance is, back to our original discussion, when you get in these these digital prisons Mhmm. You know, there's just no escaping them, and we can't have an honest conversation about it. Yep. You know, the answer is reform it, regulate it. Not necessarily a huge fan of regulation either, but in this case, it's necessary.
39:41
Chris Putnam
And find the find the happy medium that works for everybody. But we can't have that conversation.
39:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But why can't we? Because I I mean, we we are right now. Right, Shannon? Is there what fundamentally do you disagree with with respect to things that we have or they have stated, here just regarding h one b visas, if anything?
40:06
Shanon Murphy
It's hard to argue with anything that that you're saying, but it's also really hard for me as a human that wants that diversity and Mhmm. Everybody to be treated equally. It's hard for me to swallow that.
40:18
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
40:19
Shanon Murphy
And I I know everything is politicized. Mhmm. And when I see this is gonna sound terrible and forgive me, but you guys know how I vote.
40:26
Chris Putnam
It's fine.
40:27
Shanon Murphy
When you see the the leader leaders up top Mhmm. It feels like they're trying to white out America.
40:34
Chris Putnam
He's actually, like, one of the biggest proponents of HIV. It's very contradictory to
40:38
Shanon Murphy
talking simply about ICE stuff and all of that.
40:40
Chris Putnam
Different issues.
40:41
Shanon Murphy
Like, as it is. Which what we will touch upon briefly. Like, the umbrella feels like we're trying to white it out. And instead of going after the businesses that are taking advantage of these people, we just wanna get rid of the people. And it I I don't understand why we can't look at it that way.
40:56
Shanon Murphy
Like, if there's a business that is actively doing these things, why are we not doing anything about the business and we're going after the people instead? Go ahead. Tell me.
41:06
Chris Putnam
It's because that's where the political contributors are. I mean, we just mentioned Elon Trump and Elon are the two of the biggest Mhmm. H one b proponents there are.
41:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
They are.
41:16
Chris Putnam
And, you know, they recite the the talking points that are, you know, supporting h one b, the specialized skill sets, etcetera.
41:23
Shanon Murphy
Well, do you think that that's because there are also two large business owners who take advantage of the system?
41:28
Chris Putnam
I think
41:28
Shanon Murphy
that What can we do about it with them?
41:30
Chris Putnam
It well, it's not so you gotta remember something. It's not them. It's it's our legislators. You know?
41:36
Shanon Murphy
Trump is a business owner?
41:38
Chris Putnam
No. No. No. But the those problems have to be solved, you know, in our legislatures, whether it's state legislature or congress
41:45
Shanon Murphy
But to your point
41:46
Kellen Jones
doesn't do
41:46
Chris Putnam
much of anything. But to
41:47
Shanon Murphy
your point, he's supporting it. So do you think that that might be because he's taken advantage of it as a hotel owner? A person who makes billions of dollars off of all these things, he's not pay he's not paying housekeepers or whatever it might be Mhmm. As much as as he could be. I mean, the fact of the matter is, I think that he is doing everything and is this just turned really political, and I'm sorry.
42:10
Shanon Murphy
But the reason that I have such an issue with it is because it it's like the top. The the horse rots from the top down, and he is the top. And I just feel like there's so much wrong with the way that we see people, the way that we treat people, and it has changed so much since our president took office that I can't I can't see things that way.
42:30
Chris Putnam
But but go back to illegal immigration. Right?
42:33
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
42:34
Chris Putnam
That labor pool's even less expensive than the h one b labor. So by that logic, you you would think that he he wouldn't be as incentivized to, you know, send those people home.
42:45
Shanon Murphy
That is fair. But he's doing oh, sorry.
42:48
Chris Putnam
But this is where I get to the algorithm present day, and I'm not accusing you of that. I'm just saying that we we get so grounded in either what politicians on our respective sides preach to us, most of which is during times like this, we're in the middle of a heated election cycle. This is one the most heated history of Texas because everything's changing at the top. Yep. And you you just hear it.
43:06
Chris Putnam
But and you say you hear the extremes from both sides.
43:09
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
43:10
Chris Putnam
And then, you know, March 3 will roll around. Things will settle down a little bit. Mhmm. Although in this case, we're gonna have a few prominent runoffs, so maybe not so much. In Texas.
43:19
Chris Putnam
But typically, that's the way it works. And, you know, it the one thing that's been interesting historically in in United States is when either side has gone too far
43:27
Shanon Murphy
Mhmm.
43:28
Chris Putnam
It gets reeled back in. I mean, would you acknowledge that illegal immigration went too far under Biden?
43:35
Shanon Murphy
Under Biden?
43:36
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah.
43:37
Shanon Murphy
I I do argue with that point.
43:38
Chris Putnam
Okay.
43:39
Shanon Murphy
I think it's been a a succession of it happening happening happening happening, and now we have a problem with it, and we need somebody to blame.
43:47
Chris Putnam
But I
43:48
Shanon Murphy
understand that there were high numbers.
43:49
Chris Putnam
Deported more people.
43:50
Shanon Murphy
I get that.
43:51
Chris Putnam
So how do you explain that?
43:54
Shanon Murphy
Think that this is why I wish I would have done a little more research, but then I feel over prepared by research.
43:59
Chris Putnam
Authentic. It's not like
44:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I'm glad.
44:01
Shanon Murphy
It is. It's also
44:03
Chris Putnam
These are the types of conversations people should have.
44:05
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
People should have an idea.
44:07
Chris Putnam
Offended or saying this person's evil or this person's evil. You know? Like, that's where they or you're racist. You know? That the problem is it defaults too quickly to that.
44:16
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I agree.
44:16
Chris Putnam
It you know? And that's where we get polarization.
44:20
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right. Because at least for me, and I know the majority of people who vote like me, I I have a lot of distrust with respect to even this is a totally different topic. Erica Kirk. There are parts of me, because again, I walk through a process of discernment, I pray a lot. God, allow me to understand the truth from both sides, allow me to not be fed lies, and I constantly ask God to help me remember that I want to be humble enough to know that the information that I'm internalizing and what I'm believing to be true based on the extensive research I do on most topics, that I still could be wrong, that my conclusion could be wrong.
45:11
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
So again, I've never met Erika Kirk, but I've seen enough that has placed me into a space where I proceed with caution there. And again, most of people who vote like me would strongly disagree with me and would lash me for stating such, but you know, I pray about it, and people that know me know that I pray strongly for discernment on all that I read. Do you all pray for discernment when you're writing? Good. You?
45:48
Chris Putnam
Absolutely. I mean, day I start with, let me do this right, you know, the right way. And, again, starting with truth.
45:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Starting with truth. Like the Kennedy Center smelling like Democrats. Just kidding. I'm joking. I'm joking.
46:05
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I'm joking. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know I care for you, Chris. I'm kidding.
46:11
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That was an inside joke. Anyways, Kellen, you were gonna say something about
46:15
Kellen Jones
Shannon made a very good point about crime. Yes. Why aren't these companies prosecuted for mistreating the foreign workers? And unfortunately, that has not been a prosecutorial priority from any of the federal agencies that oversee the h one b visa, which is primarily Department of Labor and the Department of Homeland Security. Lori Chavez Dremer, secretary of labor I mentioned a moment ago, did announce, I think, 200 or 300 investigations into employers for abuses as part of Project Firewall.
46:46
Kellen Jones
As far as I know, that's the largest inquiry we've ever had in terms of companies Mhmm. Who are a focus of perhaps abusing their employees. Although we don't even know which companies it is that are being investigated. But what the Dallas Express has reported is that there is some known connection between the h one b visa and sex trafficking. We Yep.
47:12
Kellen Jones
I broke this story. Yep. No one knew that Ghislaine Max Maxwell
47:16
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yep.
47:16
Kellen Jones
Jeffrey Epstein's top deputy, was brought to The United States for the first time on an h one b visa. And then she was selected through the diversity lottery for a green card and then eventually got citizenship. But her first long term entry to The US Mhmm. Is on the h one b. And what we reported in follow-up series to that, and this has all been released in the latest tranche of Epstein files that just went to the DOJ website.
47:44
Kellen Jones
But it is clear from the flight logs and from some of the other files that there are models who work for John Luke Brunell, who was an accused sex offender. He died awaiting trial, much like Epstein in Paris before he ever was convicted of anything. But for decades, John Luke Brunell had sixty minute stories about him saying, you know, this guy is a perv. Look out for this guy. You know?
48:13
Kellen Jones
Some American girls who were working in Paris accused him of rape. And women are flying on planes with John Luke Brunell and Jeffrey Epstein on Little Saint James, his, of course, infamous private island. Now we can't say definitively that that h one b worker was molested by Jeffrey Epstein. But, I mean, we have Jeffrey Epstein, and we have John Luke Brunel, and we have a lot of young women on planes. And there is a connection.
48:42
Kellen Jones
These girls came from Eastern Europe. Mhmm. Czechoslovakia in one case and Belarusia Belarusia in the other. And then there were some others, documents that suggest there may have been other Eastern European women. And the Eastern European modeling scene is known for sex trafficking.
49:00
Kellen Jones
A lot of these girls are forced into pornography against their will, forced into prostitution against their will. And so the documents are highly suggestive, although not definitive Mhmm. That something was going on there. But what we can say definitively is the only person convicted of sex trafficking in Jeffrey Epstein's network, Glenn Maxwell, was brought to The US on an h one b v side.
49:22
Chris Putnam
And the same and and the same dynamic applies to illegal immigration. Yes. The it it's it was a huge pipeline of sexual trafficking that I don't believe anybody's disputed that at this point. Mhmm. By the way, back to North Texas.
49:35
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. I mean, what a lot of people don't know is, like, this is one of the hubs. You know? Oh, yeah.
49:40
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And and Absolutely.
49:42
Chris Putnam
Yeah. It's more and Texas, we're either first or second with Houston. Nationally, top 10.
49:47
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I thought we were first.
49:48
Chris Putnam
We're we're we're up there.
49:49
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah.
49:49
Chris Putnam
Yeah. Maybe first. I'll just see the latest data. But yeah. And something, you know, people don't like to talk about.
49:56
Chris Putnam
You know, it gets swept under the rug. That's why we do the Dirty John series. That's right. You know, reporting a lot of that so that people do become aware of just how significant it is. Mhmm.
50:06
Chris Putnam
And, well, I won't go there yet. There's we have a problem at our public schools with that as well. Not sexual trafficking, but sexual abuse.
50:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right. But I believe that that's finally coming coming to light, the abuse that is just entrenched in all our school systems.
50:23
Chris Putnam
It's crazy. We actually publish a link to a database Mhmm. Where you can go by your school district, your school, and just see all the cases, whether they're complaints or legal cases. And, you know, we had this situation up here in Salina recently. Right?
50:41
Shanon Murphy
Mhmm.
50:41
Chris Putnam
It's it's a cover up. Yep. Flat out. And people still haven't been held accountable. And that is going on in just about every school district in Texas.
50:49
Chris Putnam
It, you know, it requires attention, legislative attention, probably a Texas Rangers type of investigation.
50:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
50:56
Chris Putnam
But it's serious.
50:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And for these types of issues, Chris, I I applaud the work that that you're doing at the Dallas Express because these types of things, it that's never been reported.
51:09
Kellen Jones
I
51:09
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
know. You know that. Ever.
51:11
Chris Putnam
I know.
51:11
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
From any of our local outlets.
51:14
Chris Putnam
I know.
51:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I mean, I hope someone corrects me if if there have been others I've never seen.
51:19
Chris Putnam
They'll report individual use cases, but not on kind of the totality of of the of the situation and, you know, and the larger impact.
51:28
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
51:29
Chris Putnam
And and ourselves and probably ScoreCard ScoreCard Texas ScoreCard does an incredible job of exposing, you know, the the school related incidents.
51:37
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
51:38
Chris Putnam
And I'm telling you, I mean, there's one every day.
51:40
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I know.
51:41
Chris Putnam
Every single day. And those are the ones we know about.
51:44
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And have you written about that?
51:47
Kellen Jones
About sexual abuse in public schools? Yes.
51:49
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes. But, I mean, were you the one that published this particular link that he's referencing?
51:54
Chris Putnam
On Salina ISD? No. I publish it through our socials typically. Fact, I just republished it yesterday. Yeah.
52:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay. I can't believe I missed that. Okay. Because I saw it, I thought, in an article.
52:05
Chris Putnam
It has been.
52:06
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay. Alright. Well, good. Alright. Then I'll make sure that I share that as well.
52:10
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Over to immigration. You all know my story. I'm an immigrant. My family, we're all immigrants. I know you're multigenerational Texan over here.
52:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Right? So you
52:22
Kellen Jones
You've done your research.
52:23
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Maybe. Except
52:25
Chris Putnam
a pit stop in Alabama.
52:26
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. Yeah. That's alright. That's exactly right. And how about you, Shannon?
52:30
Shanon Murphy
I am second generation American. My grandmother was born in New Zealand. Uh-huh. And Oh. Came here when she was a teenager.
52:37
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I never knew that. Okay. Now you do. Alright. How about you, Chris?
52:40
Chris Putnam
Native Texan, third generation immigrant.
52:43
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Got it. Okay. My
52:44
Chris Putnam
my great grandparents.
52:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Italian?
52:46
Chris Putnam
Italian and German.
52:47
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
German. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I sense the Italian in you.
52:51
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
It's a passion. Yeah. I guess I can be German too. But anyway, I'm married to an Italian, so and I'm passionate, so it is what it is. Over to immigration.
53:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
First and foremost, do you believe that the humanitarian lens on immigration is naive at all? Or
53:13
Chris Putnam
I guess It depends on the context.
53:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Enforcement driven.
53:16
Chris Putnam
Yeah. It depends on the context. Look. I mean
53:18
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course.
53:19
Chris Putnam
On the context. We let a lot of people in this country, you know, that didn't come through the process the legal way. Mhmm. And it's impacted a lot of things. Like in Texas, where there's economic impacts.
53:31
Chris Putnam
Right? In Texas, we're the two most expensive things for actual Americans. Mhmm. Health care and education. Education is reflected in our we have very high property tax rates in Texas, as you know Mhmm.
53:41
Chris Putnam
Because that's what funds our public schools. One class of people is getting it for free and exploiting that system. And we've seen examples in Minnesota of where, you know, government systems have been exploited. They're starting to show up here in Texas
53:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
as well. Tell us about your understanding of any of these specific instances in Minnesota.
54:05
Chris Putnam
Well, in that case, it's it it was it's Somalis, and so it's probably more of an h one, you know, b use case than an illegal use case. Uh-huh. Right? But if you you know, part of the problem is our entitlement system. It's just too available to people who aren't Americans.
54:20
Chris Putnam
Mhmm. And it's the most expensive budget item we have at the federal level. And as you know, we're in a we're in a crisis.
54:25
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course.
54:26
Chris Putnam
We're we're pushing 40,000,000,000 $40,000,000,000,000 You of national know? We're still running massive deficits. And there's gonna be a day of reckoning for that. And this this is why I always go back and say, look, this isn't this isn't about race. It's not about religion necessarily, unless we're talking about Islamic incursion or Islamification.
54:43
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
54:43
Chris Putnam
You know? It's about, like, what's right for American and Americans. And we we got to get control of the problem. And, you know, again, like, even as dramatic as it seems as what's been done today as it relates to deportation, the the Obama administration deported way more people. Mhmm.
55:00
Chris Putnam
Way more.
55:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And why does that not get told? Were are you aware
55:04
Chris Putnam
of that? Politically convenient.
55:05
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay.
55:06
Kellen Jones
Well, part of it is the Democrat administrations define deportation differently than the Republican administrations.
55:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay. Tell me about this. I wasn't aware of this.
55:14
Kellen Jones
So under Obama, they changed the definition. I think Biden did it as well that if you're turned away at the border, that is considered to be a deportation. But that's not what you and I think of when we think of deportation. We think of, like, ICE going and getting someone in the interior and removing them. But the Democrat administrations now function under a different definition of deportation.
55:33
Kellen Jones
So when you hear that phrase all the time of, oh, well, Obama, it was the deporter in chief, it's a little bit misleading because of the definition differences.
55:42
Chris Putnam
And by the way, back to the nuance around immigration. Because, I mean, I think, again, most rational, critically thinking people would say, look, let's get this problem under control. And then there's opportunities to talk about whether it's past citizenship, guest worker programs, all of those things. But we have to clean the system up first because the system has been just overwhelmed. And so the problem is politicians are cowards.
56:07
Chris Putnam
Like, in 02/2015, president Trump was elected on border issues, as you know. What did congress do? Nothing. They had a Republican trifecta then. They could have passed a comprehensive immigration reform bill that would not have put us in a situation that we got to under the Biden administration where the borders are wide open.
56:25
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm. Mhmm.
56:26
Chris Putnam
What has Congress done now? Nothing. Same. Mhmm. We're know, we're gonna be right back in the same situation potentially if Republicans lose this midterm.
56:38
Chris Putnam
We'll be paralyzed. Mhmm. And then who knows what happens in in the next administration. Right? And I it takes courage because nobody wants to be called a racist, you know, but and politicians are scared of the issue.
56:51
Chris Putnam
Yep. But it it by the way, on both sides, the Democrats' answer, of course, was just like, let everybody in, and that's not the answer. It's again, there it's nuanced. There we we
56:59
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
It's so nuanced because I I can tell you. I spoke with two of my very good friends who vote like Shannon, and they were like, Of course we don't want freaking criminals in this country. Of course not. And I'm like, Exactly. But I also believe that America can be a little bit of a sucker sometimes.
57:22
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
People can claim that they're coming here for And for me, my heart is there. If I believe that someone's coming to us under life or death related situations in their home country, do I believe that there is some element of our ecosystem, whether that's the church and when I say the church, I don't just mean the Catholic church, I mean all churches working together to provide for the people who are coming to the country. Yes. I do believe
57:52
Chris Putnam
not why they're coming. They're coming to take advantage of those resources that we talked about earlier.
57:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Some And that's
57:55
Chris Putnam
the issue.
57:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Few very few are coming because I believe that they are trying to
58:00
Chris Putnam
escape That's totally fair.
58:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Absolute horror in their from their countries.
58:05
Chris Putnam
That's absolutely fair.
58:06
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And the the Christian part of me says, we must help them. But I just voted on Saturday and stated in my vote that I believe that we should not be Texas should not be accountable for paying for that at, you know, name whatever
58:29
Chris Putnam
Which you do. In your property taxes.
58:31
Shanon Murphy
Of course we do.
58:31
Chris Putnam
In your health insurance premiums. Of course
58:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
we do, which is that's what I'm saying. So the way that we need to dissect this very difficult topic, How do you believe that we should dissect this at the legislature? Who needs to step up? I mean, Shannon, do you have suggestions
58:50
Shanon Murphy
here? Of course I have suggestions.
58:53
Chris Putnam
Let everybody right?
58:55
Shanon Murphy
Let everybody yeah. I first, let me say, I agree. Mhmm. Do things legally. Mhmm.
59:01
Shanon Murphy
But the the way that we are going about getting the people who are I I don't wanna call them illegals, that feels dirty to me. So the people who are here illegally, I think you go after the criminals.
59:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's what they're You don't.
59:15
Chris Putnam
This is your bubble.
59:17
Shanon Murphy
This is my maybe this is
59:18
Chris Putnam
my bubble. This is I'm telling you.
59:19
Shanon Murphy
But I I the things that I have seen and the the warehouse that they tried to purchase in Hutchins as a a place to just store the people feels dirty to be. And it to put them in there like cattle. I mean, even though they might be here illegally, still treat them as humans and take them out. And I I don't know where in the legislation that would have to happen. I think it it needs to be done probably on a local level.
59:48
Shanon Murphy
I mean, I think that the cities have to get involved with it, but it almost feels like the cities that are blue are the ones that are being picked on by ICE. And I say picked on because that's what I've seen, is them going and knocking on doors and dragging people out. Mhmm. And I know that they're also getting their criminals out. I can't like diss what they're doing completely.
60:09
Shanon Murphy
But when you're just trying to put on a show, that that's how it feels to me. I don't think they're trying to say big show.
60:16
Chris Putnam
I think the left is putting on the show.
60:17
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
How?
60:18
Chris Putnam
They're they're purposely agitating to create this sentiment that Let's is gone
60:23
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
be clear. It may not be the right or the left. It may be different powers that be that are trying to create absolute chaos, discord, and divisiveness in our civilization. I'm serious.
60:41
Chris Putnam
By the way, totally agree
60:42
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
with you. I do not trust the government. Let me repeat. Do not repeat. I do not trust the government.
60:51
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And for me, that is both sides of the political sphere, me personally. I don't believe, but do I vote right? Yes. I do. However, there are elements that I still do not 100% agree with.
61:10
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But if I'm given a choice of two things, okay, I'm gonna choose this, but it is not because I 100% believe that this is end all, be all best solution. It is a better solution.
61:24
Kellen Jones
I wanted to break in real quickly because Shannon made a very good point about her perception that blue cities are being picked on. Mhmm. And part of the difference I wanted to explain the difference and why a lot of Democrats
61:37
Chris Putnam
drive that way. I mean, empirically.
61:40
Kellen Jones
Is because in a red city, like, let's use Fort Worth or any major red controlled city, they may be part of two eighty seven g, which which is a
61:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Explain that.
61:53
Kellen Jones
Which is where local governments can come into a special agreement with the federal government, and they get some compensation for their training. They get some of training costs covered. Local law enforcement. Essentially. And they can carry out certain immigration actions like, you know, taking arrest and then giving the person to ICE.
62:09
Kellen Jones
But when you're dealing with somewhere like Minnesota, they are not part of two eighty seven g.
62:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
62:15
Chris Putnam
Or Dallas, right, where we're sitting. They don't cooperate at all.
62:20
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Dallas does not. I don't wanna
62:22
Kellen Jones
know. I can't no. I can't let the cat out of the bag on that one. Okay. That's just what I'll say.
62:25
Kellen Jones
I can't let
62:26
Chris Putnam
the cat
62:26
Kellen Jones
out the bag on that one. That's why that's why I'm hemming and hawing.
62:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh, got it.
62:29
Chris Putnam
Okay. But
62:31
Kellen Jones
so but in Minnesota, the the feds have to do the all the immigration enforcement on their own, which is why you just see them more. And also, they changed who can do the interior enforcement last year because traditionally, you think of that being ICE. But in some cases now, CBP will carry out some forms of interior enforcement. And so that's why you're seeing these all these federal agencies suddenly converge on these cities is because they're not getting the cooperation that a Red City may give to
63:02
Chris Putnam
federal government. Issue is with with respect to that is I hear anybody complaining or having marches or putting themselves in danger when Obama was deporting far more people than the Trump administration has today. And if you go back and this is the great thing about the Internet and the great thing about finally having some freedom on social media to talk about some things even if it introduces, you know, some misinformation. You can go back and see these these politicians, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Obama speaking very, very firmly about how we need to get illegal immigration under control. They're only doing this now because it's politically convenient.
63:41
Chris Putnam
It it it it's the narrative that they're using to whip people up, to incite violence, and incite these agitations.
63:49
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
What is the moral line to you between border enforcement and love of neighbor?
63:58
Chris Putnam
I I don't think they're mutually exclusive. So, I mean, I I mean, I absolutely come from the perspective that if you came here illegally, you broke the law regardless of whether you've committed a criminal act in The United States or not. And and again, it's not to say that there's not a path for non criminals to restore citizenship, military service, guest worker program. Lots of lots of good ideas. But I do think that we have to clean the system out first.
64:28
Chris Putnam
And, you know, all of our individual decisions have consequences. Right? I've made some bad ones like every other human being. And, you know, I've, you know, I've been accountable for those. Mhmm.
64:40
Chris Putnam
So those you know, if if you came here knowing that, you know, you shouldn't be here in the wrong way, then go home and do it the right way. You know? That that's the way I feel about it. And I don't believe that there's anything unchristian about that.
64:54
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
64:54
Chris Putnam
God had laws.
64:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course. And God God created our lands with boundaries. Yeah. It doesn't mean It says that in the Bible.
65:02
Chris Putnam
It doesn't mean you don't love people, but that this thesis that we have to love, you know, everybody that comes here and embrace them, I think, is nonsense. Mhmm. Again, we can we can do that. We can love everybody or, you know, even if we don't like the sin or the crime or whatever it is, but we still have to be accountable. Mhmm.
65:19
Chris Putnam
And so in this case, accountability just means go back to where you came from from a while and come back the right way.
65:24
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And that's what I mean, I was born to my mother who was here illegally, but I was just born on US soil. People like You're me
65:34
Chris Putnam
an anchor baby.
65:35
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I am. I am an anchor but she left. She did not raise me. I was the only one given up for adoption out of her four children, and she went back and did it right. So she talk about someone getting on their soapbox.
65:52
Chris Putnam
I have family too that's naturalized. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. They didn't come here early to begin with.
65:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Gotcha.
65:56
Chris Putnam
And I'm sure you've experienced too this. And, by the way, this is true for Cubans, Iranians. Like, a lot of folks that left those countries Yep. And assimilated, they're the biggest patriots there are.
66:05
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Well, of course.
66:06
Chris Putnam
They they appreciate it so much more than a lot of, Americans that are
66:10
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Well, that's the thing because I was not raised with my biological family because she couldn't afford to feed me or to keep me. But she went back and what she says today is if people plan to come here and not have to sacrifice, what are they thinking? What are they thinking? Because she left me here and my wonderful parents, who are now deceased, raised me, but she went and did it the right way, became a citizen. My siblings all became citizens, and we're now all here legally.
66:47
Chris Putnam
And the truly amazing thing about this country, about America, is you can can be from somewhere else.
66:53
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
66:53
Chris Putnam
Literally, the opportunity is limitless.
66:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
66:56
Chris Putnam
As you know. Mean, we we have a we have a Cuban, you know, heritage senator, Marco Rubio.
67:02
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah.
67:03
Chris Putnam
Right? Like, Obama. Mhmm. You know, I'm not saying he was born somewhere else. Nobody get crazy.
67:08
Chris Putnam
But, I mean, that's where I get crazy. Like, you know, the left screams about, you know, all these discriminatory things and and other countries wanna judge us. And when you look at it at face value, there's not a more egalitarian country on the planet. There's just not.
67:28
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
It's true. Yep. And I agree with you on that. And, Kellen, and then I want your thoughts, Shannon, here with respect to this particular question, the border enforcement and loving your
67:39
Kellen Jones
There's very different sensibilities on this. You know, you, of course, grew up in El Paso. Mhmm. Part of the border barrier that's in El Paso is the highway, and the highway is the Cesar Chavez Highway. And Cesar Chavez's sensibilities were that having open borders is terrible to the people already here.
68:00
Kellen Jones
He, of course, founder of United Farm Workers, the labor union spent a lot of time in California and in Texas organizing mostly Hispanic farm workers, many of whom were immigrants, many of whom were on green cards. And they felt that if you had open borders, the local farmers, the farm owners, would use the illegal immigration to drive down the conditions of the immigrants already here. And Cesar Chavez gave a interview to La Paz, I think, in 1979, accusing the Carter administration of opening up the borders anytime there was about to be a strike or a collective bargaining action.
68:40
Chris Putnam
And that's a hero of the left.
68:41
Kellen Jones
That is a hero of the left. I think there may even be a Cesar Chavez Boulevard in Fort Worth.
68:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh, I didn't know that.
68:47
Kellen Jones
I know there's a Dolores Huerta who was his deputy, and she's still alive, as far as I know.
68:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I didn't know that.
68:53
Kellen Jones
Right. And she was she is now flipped actually on that issue, but she was with Chavez at the time. And so that's part of the sensibility of, like, to be good to the people that are already here. Mhmm. You know, you have to have some sort of sensible restriction, which would have been Cesar Chavez's position.
69:09
Kellen Jones
However, alternatively, our legal immigration system was created in the wake of the Holocaust, especially with regards to our asylum system.
69:17
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
69:18
Kellen Jones
And the idea was that there will one day be another Hitler, and we will we want to have our borders open to the Jews when they when they or the political dissidents that inevitably have to flee Hitler and Germany. That system still exists, and it has existed roughly for sixty years or so. And the question is, you know, do the people who are entering legally under the asylum program today, are they like the Jews of 1940? Are they? I don't that that's really up for everyone in this room to decide when they vote.
69:49
Kellen Jones
And is there someone equivalent to Hitler today that justifies that migration?
69:55
Chris Putnam
Shannon would say it's the president.
69:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I absolutely would. Yep. You're right.
69:59
Chris Putnam
By the way, echoing your point, you know, one of things we haven't talked about is this electoral transformation in this state. 45% of Hispanics voted Republican in the last national election. And
70:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
How many?
70:12
Chris Putnam
It's 45%. It was a big number. And that is something that was never anticipated. By now, Texas was supposed to be blue because of the growth in the Hispanic population in Texas. And it actually surprised them, but it's because at the end of the day, what used to be the middle of of the Democratic Party went this way.
70:34
Chris Putnam
You know? Elon's got this great chart. He's like, here's me.
70:36
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Uh-huh.
70:37
Chris Putnam
He was a Democrat. Right? And, you know, here's them. And now I'm not now I'm Hitler. I
70:44
Kellen Jones
point all that out to to say that there are different feelings about immigration that are rooted in different moral lineages. Chavez versus And based on his historical. And historical context. You know? So anyway, I I just point out that that out to say there's different sides.
70:59
Kellen Jones
And I know Shannon, you're ready to jump in.
71:01
Shanon Murphy
Oh, I'm good. I'm enjoying what you're saying. I just think the the line is the way that we go about doing it. Mhmm. And I know you're going to say that this is because of my algorithm.
71:11
Shanon Murphy
I get that. But I'm seeing what I'm seeing, and that is people being dragged by their hair practically because I I they're But there
71:20
Chris Putnam
is scene where you're supposed
71:21
Shanon Murphy
to But when we when we do criminal statistics for the city of Dallas, we're not taking into account the number of illegal people who are here. We're treating those people as though they have murdered somebody or
71:30
Chris Putnam
done something police reports. Did you know that? No. I'm serious.
71:35
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Well, I did you know whenever I got, arrested in New York with my, breast knuckles, they had me listed as a I
71:44
Kellen Jones
was here with a criminal. Yes.
71:46
Chris Putnam
No. That's a that's a FBI, UCR.
71:48
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But you all I literally I was like, I'm a Latina. I told the judge. Anyway, I was like, and you have me listed as a white lady. And I was like, I'm not white. I know I'm, like, white passing, but it needs to reflect that I am Latina.
72:04
Chris Putnam
I'm sorry. It's part of the reason that crimes bilingual immigrants were radically understated. Yep. You know? Because that's how they are categorized.
72:10
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But I can understand me because I don't look that I mean, I'm not like my son, Louis. He's way more tan than I am. He looks way more mestizo. Right?
72:21
Chris Putnam
But it doesn't have to do with appearance. Like, if if if you're Hispanic and you commit a, you know, a criminal offense, like, you're booked as a Caucasian.
72:29
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I know. I know. And and I don't understand it. But I know that that's accurate.
72:35
Kellen Jones
The the the racial categories for most federal reporting were created decades ago. Mhmm. And it was before, like, they really even thought of, like, oh, yeah. We're a country that's more than just, like, white and black. Mhmm.
72:45
Kellen Jones
And, you
72:46
Chris Putnam
know, the the pop the Hispanic population was much smaller then.
72:48
Kellen Jones
That's what I'm saying. Yeah. You know, it was smaller, and it wasn't really on anyone's radar. Now, of course, it is, but we still have the old system of categorizing. So, like, when I go through crime reports, typically, you'll see and you'll see it even on the comments of a crime story.
73:05
Kellen Jones
It'll be like, you know, white guy, and the guy's clearly not. You know? But I do see it screwed up the other way. Last week, there was a guy who was clearly Hispanic, but was listed as black. And that was the first time I had seen that.
73:18
Kellen Jones
It was either in Denton or Collin County, but it it happens both ways sometimes.
73:23
Chris Putnam
Shannon, I have a question for
73:24
Shanon Murphy
you.
73:24
Chris Putnam
Yes. So the again, like, a lot of these arrests, of course, are being played out on television now. Right?
73:31
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
73:34
Chris Putnam
If you're resisting, Like, if look, it's I don't think there's any question about the legality of the deportation. But like, if you're resisting, if you're just any criminal resisting, what are they supposed to do?
73:48
Shanon Murphy
They're supposed to take you down, of course. Yes. They do what they have to do to keep themselves safe. But these people are instigating. Like, they're instigating issues that weren't there before I don't with their direct Well, actually,
74:00
Chris Putnam
I see. I think it's the left. Okay.
74:02
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
This is what I'm Do me a favor. Can you send clips Yes. So that we can include them in this? I wanna see those clips.
74:10
Shanon Murphy
I I've seen a clip of an old man in underwear being dragged out of his home. He was not protesting. He wasn't doing anything against these people, yet they treat him with no dignity. I mean, we're humans. We should be treated with dignity.
74:24
Shanon Murphy
And here's what you're gonna
74:25
Chris Putnam
disagree with that.
74:25
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. No one would disagree with that. And that's the thing. I don't see that. Does that make sense?
74:31
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes. I am not getting stuff like this fed into my algorithm, which is why I wanna see it. Can you just send it so that we can include it as part of this whole interview? Because for me, that's what I I'm wanting people to understand. Okay.
74:47
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
My friend Shannon is viscerally upset, as are people that are voting like you, because you're seeing these things. I don't see those things. But the thing is, if I did see those things, you bet your buttons I'd be trying to understand where is this? Where is this happening? What county?
75:05
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
What this? What that? I would be on it. But the thing is, I'm psycho when it comes to things that I'm fed and trying to understand and discern. But send that to us.
75:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course. Because here's the thing, no one here is going to judge because that's what he's saying. Of course, if there's a poor elderly man being dragged out of his home by these people, that is absolutely lack of preservation of dignity, of humanity, right? Like, that's abuse of power. And here's the thing.
75:35
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
We all know that there are many police
75:37
Kellen Jones
Yep.
75:38
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And enforcement officers who abuse their power because they're human.
75:43
Chris Putnam
Right.
75:43
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
All all of us mess up. So, yes.
75:49
Chris Putnam
Yeah. It's like the problem is the media, like, is just never gonna be honest with you about it.
75:54
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course not.
75:55
Chris Putnam
They're gonna take the part of the clip that out of context that, you know, looks like But I wanna see something bad. It was just like the thing in Minnesota. Right? The shooting. It took three days, you know, before you finally saw what exactly happened.
76:08
Chris Putnam
And, you know, that that's how they do it. And by the time they've already generated the
76:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
The anger.
76:13
Chris Putnam
The anger and the the narrative.
76:14
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Visceral reaction.
76:15
Chris Putnam
Once the narrative is out there, even if the the the actual thing you see in front of your eyes is something totally different, they've already got it burned into
76:23
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
you. Just like George Floyd.
76:24
Chris Putnam
Same thing.
76:25
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. The George Floyd stuff. And, you know, he was overdosing, and I'm just like, anyway.
76:31
Chris Putnam
Yeah. The autopsy report there was super clear as to
76:34
Kellen Jones
what killed him. But, Of
76:37
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
you know, do well meaning people on both sides understand the heart behind it? Yes. And that's why I want to just continue these conversations more and more, because they're important. Chetan, I want to ask you this particular question. How do you personally decide when the issue is real and when it's being emotionally manufactured?
77:04
Shanon Murphy
I have to talk to people about it. I mean, you are a really good sounding board for those things.
77:08
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
77:08
Shanon Murphy
When the Alex Pruddey thing happened Mhmm. I was just as angry about it as everybody else. And then you sent me the video Uh-huh. Of of the of him spitting on the car Yeah. Whatever it was.
77:19
Shanon Murphy
And I thought it was AI. Yeah. I was like, why didn't this come out sooner? Like, something is not right about this.
77:26
Chris Putnam
Back to
77:26
Shanon Murphy
the distortion of the media. We have to have these conversations. I mean, that's really the only thing that's going to to bring light to what's really going on.
77:35
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yeah. And it's so important. It's like, even though he did that stuff and spat on whomever, I'm I am of the opinion that and here's the thing. You all know, I carry everywhere I go. I am, I mean, I am a proud carrier of guns.
77:51
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And so I will absolutely use my gun if I feel I must. However and I'm also dominion to the officer, though. Right? Pardon?
78:02
Chris Putnam
You probably wouldn't do that if it was law enforcement.
78:04
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Absolutely not. Here's the thing. I would let myself just be taken. And I'd be like, okay. We'll we'll sift this out in court.
78:11
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Know, I'm not gonna
78:11
Chris Putnam
Will that happen?
78:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Sit here well go ahead. We've seen it on video. It did happen. It did happen. Dear god.
78:17
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But, anyway, the the truth is that I just believe that we must create spaces that are safe, that are grounded and rooted in fact and accurate history. And I just wish that more people knew that there was a war for control of people's minds.
78:38
Chris Putnam
That's the
78:38
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
real war. Absolutely. And the sooner it's exposed, the sooner people understand that the only way we're going to be able to march through this divisive space is by having conversations with people who vote And and think differently from that is what I want fundamentally and firmly to come out of this is just conversation because, I mean, I can't tell you how upset Shannon was when, you know, Trump was elected president. And and no. And and listen.
79:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And I I sat here and I consoled her, and I said, Shannon, I am so sorry. And I said, you know, I know it doesn't make you feel better, but I felt the same way when Biden was in office. But the thing is, you know, I I didn't confide in someone about that. I didn't. And I wish I had.
79:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm. I guess I didn't have you in my life at that point. Not yet.
79:34
Chris Putnam
Or were you weren't out on the street closing freeways down.
79:39
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I mean, you know, for me, it's a I want people to to to understand that there is a way to say, I hear what you're saying. And you know what? I understand how Shannon views things the way that she does. I absolutely understand it because I get that she's seeing different algorithms than what are being fed to me. I get it.
80:02
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And for that reason and that reason alone, I'm like, I love this person. And I myself grace for possibly being wrong, her grace for possibly being wrong, and we proceed that way. But thank you.
80:17
Chris Putnam
Everybody's got different value systems, whether they're political, religious, otherwise. Right? The key is we have to learn to respect each other's value system. Like, I've never run into a radical leftist that, you know, I couldn't have a drink with or do whatever with. I live among many of them, and we're all very friendly.
80:35
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
80:35
Chris Putnam
Again, it's when people become intolerant. And I'm not pointing that in either direction. Yeah. You know? But when people become intolerant and stop being able to have constructive discussions, that's when things have broken down.
80:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
80:46
Chris Putnam
And that's where we are. And then with Trump in particular, a lot of it's personality driven. And, you know, I tell people all the time, like, we've gotta get past this idea of personalities to get focused on outcomes, political outcomes, because that ship has sailed. Like, we're gonna get some interesting people in public office, as you know. Like, you know, and that's not gonna and that's not gonna change.
81:10
Chris Putnam
They're gonna be flawed as all humans are. And and I fully understand the reason that folks like you, you know, are absolutely put off by the president's personality, and I I get that completely. But I also like to point people back to, like, it's what you do. Right? Not like with respect to Trump and the left, they give him no credit for anything.
81:38
Chris Putnam
Look at what he's done just in the first year with respect to the Middle East. Look what he's done with respect to Ukraine and Russia. Like, anybody else would be winning a Nobel Prize. I mean, it's just the truth.
81:51
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You know, since we all have that kind of foundation, right, where we agree Judeo Christian wise, in some capacity we have historical framework around it. In a lot of our, at least Christian and Judeo Christian writings, knowledge increases in the end times, right? Knowledge will increase. Wisdom does not. Discernment becomes harder.
82:17
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Confusion multiplies. Fear rises, and love grows cold. So I I state all of these things because I realize like, my example with, let's say, like, Erica Kirk, and I feel so horribly for what happened to her, but she is beautiful and all of the things and speaks, I believe, in the right way. But, again, because I walk through this whole series of things when information is not aligning entirely with what I believe to be true, I just kind of pause. I don't really make a determination one way or another.
83:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But I just pause because for me at least with Donald Trump, he can come across as abrasive, slightly narcissistic, all the things. But, you know, there are elements of that with many people who are successful. I mean, even myself, dear lord. I can show a number of examples of myself that showcase me as a narcissist, even though I know I'm not. But there are certain things
83:34
Chris Putnam
that do. Term in society, by the way.
83:36
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Correct. Correct. What I'm
83:37
Chris Putnam
saying There's actually about one to two percent, I think, clinical narcissists. Sure.
83:40
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Sure. But, like, I'm saying, there are instances in how I live my life that someone might say, that woman is a narcissist. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
83:49
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Whatever. I'm not, but you get what I'm saying. So I do understand that discernment is going to become harder for all of us, for all of us. So I it is my prayer that for everyone here and for anyone listening that they pray for discernment constantly and proceed with the small notion that whatever
84:13
Shanon Murphy
it
84:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
is that they're being fed or watching could be contrived, untrue, and meant to manipulate their minds. Because as we kind of move forward, and I hopefully will be able to interview some of these people that I'm wanting to interview, anyways, a particular general and all of this, I think I've shown you the book, Shannon. But there's a lot of truth going into that war for our minds today. Is there anything else that you want to depart with? Anything that you feel is on your heart, pressed upon your heart, and maybe you didn't get a chance to say anything about it?
84:55
Kellen Jones
Just thank thank you for having me here today. It's been wonderful to sit down and talk with you. We're gonna have to do this again.
85:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
We will.
85:00
Kellen Jones
What are y'all doing at five?
85:03
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Shannon, how about you?
85:05
Shanon Murphy
I I think that that we all need to realize the weight of our words, and and think about those things a little bit more. Mhmm. Chris, I love you. However, the the radical left and the crazy leftist and and that kind of stuff, I don't think that's helping the division. And so if we can all just do our part with thinking about those things and consciously making the effort to be kind to everyone.
85:34
Shanon Murphy
I'm not saying that you're not being kind. I'm just Alright. Making a point of it. I think that would make a huge difference.
85:40
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Thank you. Thank you for saying that, Shannon. Of course. I appreciate it.
85:43
Chris Putnam
Because Yeah. What I would like probably to say last is just that don't you know, I I hope folks will apply the energy, the the mental energy, to go look for the truth and to and to really, you know, give some thought to who's delivering you the message, why, etcetera. Look for the patterns Mhmm. Like this situation we described last week with Colbert because they're out there. There's they're they're tactics.
86:11
Chris Putnam
There's strategies that are deliberate in order to promote narratives as opposed to the news. And in Texas, we have this really interesting dynamic now because every single major city, local print daily is owned by a New York company or a New Jersey company. Mhmm. Those and controlled editorially from those places. And those are those are not places that always reflect Texas cultural or political values.
86:34
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Absolutely not.
86:35
Chris Putnam
Yeah. And so, you know, understand who you're getting your news from and what their agenda is because they all have one. You know, as Mani has said before, we're human, so we all have biases. Some are transparent about it, some aren't. And as long as people are explaining to you why they're reporting the way they are and you're giving everybody an equal opportunity to participate in that process as you're reporting about, that's real journalism.
87:03
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
87:03
Chris Putnam
Not sowing political narratives and amplifying them in order to fulfill a political agenda. And that's what we try to do here.
87:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Good. I love that. And you spoke beautifully to it about the journalistic integrity that you try to apply to every single article that you write. Thank you. Because I think without that as the as the true north, it will be lost.
87:28
Chris Putnam
That's how we got here.
87:28
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yep. So thank you.
87:30
Chris Putnam
And even the leftists give us credit for it.
87:34
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Thank you all for being here.
featuring our host.
SARAH ZUBIATE BENNETT
Venture Philanthropist, Host and Executive Producer of Let’s Talk Local, bold leader driving growth in private and social sectors.
Talk Local with Us
Subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms and join us as we uncover the stories and voices that make Dallas extraordinary—Get to Know the Real Dallas.
© 2026 Dallas Express. All rights reserved.