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22 Oct 2025
Compassion Over Condemnation: Talking About Abortion and Faith

This episode is deeply personal.


Sarah opens up about an experience from her teenage years — a time when she faced pregnancy from horrific circumstances and then made the difficult decision to terminate. Now, years later, she reflects on that moment and what it has taught her about life, faith, and grace in a heartfelt conversation with Roland Warren, President & CEO of Care Net.

If you’ve ever faced a hard decision and found yourself looking back with questions, this episode is for you. It’s an honest, compassionate conversation about choices, healing, and hope — shared without judgment and with an open heart.

0:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Host
Roland C. Warren
Guest

Episode Timeline

All Episodes
00:51
Why this episode is so personal to Sarah
07:55
Roland talks about the choice he and his wife made when they were younger and how it inspired his career
22:51
How does Roland’s thought process work when it comes to women who become pregnant after being victimized?
27:49
How do you Apportion Compassion?
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Full Transcript

00:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Life is full of choices. Some so profound they shape you forever. At 15 I had a pregnancy termination. Two years later I discovered that my own life had once been spared through adoption. A truth I never knew. In this episode of Let's Talk Local, I sit down with Roland Warren, President and CEO of Care Net to discuss one of the most challenging and often divisive issues in our society. This is not a debate. It's a non judgmental faith filled conversation rooted in lived experience, honesty, and compassion. Thank you for being here.
00:35
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
This interview I think is the most it's the one that has made me reflect the most.
00:42
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh. And because it's a very difficult topic for me, as I mentioned to you via email. But growing up, I never knew that I was adopted. My parents were always older, and so when I found out that I was adopted, my goodness, it was a little earth shattering for me. Because I identified such similarities between myself and my parents who raised me, but I was still very different.
01:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I was a little bit of a hellion. I was strong willed, hot headed. All the things that I guess my mother wasn't, but my father was the hothead, unfortunately. But it made a lot of sense to me when I found out I was adopted. But it was a turning point for me, so to speak, because I then immediately wanted to know who my biological mother was, who my biological father was.
01:48
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I still don't know who my biological father is, but I do know my biological mother. But the story of life is one that is deeply meaningful and very personal to me. And I mean, just reading so much about you, and when Monty first said, I really think that you should interview him, You'd really, really like him. And I looked at him and I said, This topic is gutting for me.
02:18
Roland Warren
Yeah.
02:19
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But let me pray about it. I need to muster up some courage and do it because it's your work is inspiring.
02:30
Roland Warren
Oh, thank you.
02:31
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Work is inspiring. Your story is profoundly inspirational. And, when I read the story of you and your wife in your book, I want to know what prompted you to write it. You kind of alluded to it, right? It's your choice to choose life when the nurse was suggesting to your wife, oh, you will not do this.
02:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Your dreams, goodbye. Right? All the things that we experience. But my experience was different from you and your wife in that when I found myself pregnant, I was 15 years old. And the situation was very it was different and rooted in pain and just disgusting parts of humanity.
03:26
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
So my mom, when she was the very first person I told, the only person I believe, and at that point, I did not realize that I was adopted when I was 15. They had not told me. Wow. And so she because of the situation in which my teenage pregnancy arose from, she was like, no. No.
03:56
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
No. No. And I thought to myself, well, maybe I would hate. Hate is a strong word, but you still worry whenever it comes from a situation born out of certain circumstances. You think, well, maybe I would have hate for this child.
04:16
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And I was gripped with fear. That graph that you showed is so true and so worrisome even though I was top of my class. I was right? There were many similarities between your wife and myself. But at that point, I hadn't even considered telling anyone else because it was so difficult Right.
04:51
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
To find myself in that situation. So my mother took me from my termination, my abortion at 15, and she said some really hateful things afterwards, and I couldn't understand it for the life of me. I was like, why would she say these things? My mother was a very elegant woman, a passive aggressive. My father abused her growing up.
05:22
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
It was a really chaotic family environment that I was raised in, so there was no stability in my family. I mean, was more stable than the environment I would have been raised with had my biological mother not given me up for adoption. But she chose life. Right. And I didn't know it. I did not know that at the time.
05:44
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
So two years later, when I found out that I was adopted
05:51
Roland Warren
Wow.
05:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That Yeah. Was hard. Yeah. Because for all intents and purposes, I mean, it would have been much easier for her to, right, to have terminated me. But she didn't.
06:08
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And it took a lot of reconciliation in my life and it wasn't until my father passed away I found myself in treatment for workaholism and just trauma. Really, really, really bad trauma in my life. And that's when I was able to reconcile a lot of this pain that I had just stuffed down. And my biological mother being so courageous and having chose life for me, giving me up to my parents. She worked as a maid, as a housekeeper for my aunt.
06:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And she met my parents, knew that they wanted a child so badly, they couldn't have one. So she asked, would you be willing to raise this child of mine and give them the life that I can't.
06:59
Roland Warren
Wow.
07:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm. She was struggling to feed my older two siblings back in Jimenez Chihuahua. I mean, true poverty. Those are my beginnings. Yeah.
07:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But I find myself here today and think, okay, the way you pieced together that book, it was not with judgment or mean, you you speak about the importance of leading with kindness. And so I appreciate you
07:36
Roland Warren
thank you for very much. What you Appreciate that.
07:38
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
What you do. Will you tell me and our viewers and listeners a little bit about your past, your story? I mean, clearly I know it because I've read your book. But please tell tell us what your story looks like.
07:54
Roland Warren
Yeah. No. First off, thanks so much for sharing your story. I think that it's so important that people talk about these things. Know, people make people make decisions one way or the other.
08:06
Roland Warren
And, you know, I I certainly sitting here today, it's it's it's certainly a testament to the fact that God uses all of that. Amen. I mean, he uses all of that. Mhmm. And kind of the the scenario that you kinda walked through, I know so many different folks have faced that, and then my wife faced a, you know, sort of a similar dilemma when you have all that in front of you.
08:26
Roland Warren
Although she was older. She was 19 year 15. So there's Mhmm. Certainly a big a big difference from that perspective. But but, know, I you know, the book you talk about Bad Dead no.
08:35
Roland Warren
I'm talking about Bad Does The Bible. That's my other book. Sorry.
08:39
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh, I haven't read
08:40
Roland Warren
Another commercial. Oh. Bad Does The Bible. Eight Messicks Every Good Dad Can Avoid. That's another one.
08:43
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
There's another book that you've written.
08:45
Roland Warren
I have. Yeah. Okay. But it yeah. And it's connected to this one too because it kinda led me down a path of of connecting the life issue to the fatherhood issue, which we can talk about.
08:53
Roland Warren
But Mhmm. The Alternative to Abortion, Why We Must Be Proabundant Life Mhmm. That's the book that you're talking about. It kinda talks through So the the story Mhmm. Of of maybe thinking about the life thinking about the life issue in a different context.
09:05
Roland Warren
And I start with with my story of my wife, Yvette.
09:08
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
09:08
Roland Warren
And and we, you know, met at Princeton. We're both undergrads
09:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
09:13
Roland Warren
There. And I was a soft she was a sophomore. I was I was a junior. Mhmm. We got connected pretty quickly and became intimate.
09:22
Roland Warren
We were Christians at the time too, knew we were doing stuff we shouldn't have been doing, and there's a consequence that comes from that. And then we found ourselves pregnant. That's Mhmm. It's interesting because my wife would tell the story that she was she grew up in San Antonio, and she was in her dad's truck, they were heading to Baylor to pick her sister up from from college. And she felt herself ovulating.
09:42
Roland Warren
She said, oh my gosh. I think I'm pregnant. Her dad was sitting right next door. So so when she got back to San Antonio, she called me on the phone and said, I think I'm pregnant. Uh-huh.
09:51
Roland Warren
And I was like, oh my I don't remember what I said after that. It was
09:53
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Of course.
09:54
Roland Warren
Sort of a blank at that after that. But then she came back. It was during Christmas break that this happened, came back, went to student health services to get the pregnancy test. She goes in, gets the test, nurse brings the test back and says, you know, it's positive. And without taking an extra gulp of air, just kinda says, no.
10:13
Roland Warren
Of course, you're gonna have an abortion. Mhmm. And Yvette says, well, I don't wanna have an abortion. I mean, I wanna get married. I wanna have my baby.
10:19
Roland Warren
And and the nurse is like, well, how how are you gonna graduate from Princeton with a baby? I mean, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Seems like abortion's the right choice here. And Yvette says, well, no. I wanna get married and, you know, one of the I I don't wanna do that.
10:32
Roland Warren
And they're just, well, wait a minute. What do you wanna do when you graduate? She's like, gosh. I wanna become a doctor. And they're just like, become a doctor with a baby, you know, graduate from Princeton with a baby.
10:42
Roland Warren
Doesn't seem like it makes a whole lot of sense. And so kinda left. That was as Yvette tells it, that was her prenatal counseling. Yes. Yes.
10:50
Roland Warren
It was really encouraging her to abort.
10:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And that is how the conversations go.
10:54
Roland Warren
That's how that's how it goes.
10:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
How they go.
10:56
Roland Warren
It's how it goes. And and, you know, it's interesting because, you know, the nurse was an older woman, probably a mother herself. She could have said, okay. How do we make your choice work? Mhmm.
11:05
Roland Warren
She could have said, who's the father? Where's the father? Maybe we can have him come to the next visit to support your choice in his child, but she didn't say any of that. And she just kinda moved her in that direction. So, you know, I imagine I don't remember the specifics specifics of it, but she came back to the dorm room and we kinda talked and said, oh, we're gonna move forward with the plan, and we're gonna get married.
11:23
Roland Warren
And so that's what we did. So we got married by the justice of the peace. About five months later, a couple of students were there and kinda started our our our life together. And the punch line to the story, you know, just see how God works. I mean, she took a year off and finished from Princeton and and then went on to medical school, was chief resident of her program, all all these amazing things
11:49
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right. That happened. Brilliant.
11:51
Roland Warren
Yeah. It was just amazing to see how that how all that kinda came came together. And and and and to me, I think the the one thing that is so amazing about this is is, you know, the the son that they wanted her to abort Mhmm. End up having a little boy. And they wanted her to abort.
12:11
Roland Warren
You know, we have a granddaughter through that son. And I I remember the first time Yvette got a chance to hold our our little granddaughter. It was during the COVID period. We weren't able to travel. They were out in California.
12:24
Roland Warren
We were and, you know, we couldn't travel and the whole deal, and she was born during that period of time. And I I believe this fantastic picture of her holding our little granddaughter. And it's just such an amazing picture because one of the the premises of abortion I mean, no one has an abortion to make their life worse.
12:40
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's I
12:41
Roland Warren
it might make your life worse, but no one does it for that thing. Listen. I'm gonna do this. It's gonna make my life worse. That's right.
12:46
Roland Warren
The whole premise behind it is gonna make your life better.
12:48
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Easier.
12:48
Roland Warren
Gonna make your life better, easier. You're gonna be able to accomplish your hopes and your dreams and your aspirations for your life. Yep. And this baby is is gonna block you from being able to do that. So and the thing I think about in that context is when I look at that picture of her holding our little granddaughter and the look on my wife's face, you know, she's not 19 anymore.
13:10
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
13:10
Roland Warren
Right? And when she was sitting there, you know, in in the in the office with that nurse having that conversation, she couldn't see that picture. Right? That's right. The premise is nothing good will come from this.
13:23
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's
13:23
Roland Warren
right. Nothing this is a net negative for your life. Mhmm. Right? And she couldn't see that picture, but God did.
13:28
Roland Warren
Right? And so that's the challenge, really trying to help people, you know, see that there's there's humanity connected to the decisions that we make in this context. Mhmm. And that although you can't see the future, there is one who does. Yep.
13:43
Roland Warren
And, you know, our objective is really I mean, our goal should be really to kind of put our trust and hope in him because Mhmm. You know, he wants good things for us. And, you know, I'm not saying it's easy because it it wasn't. You know? That's right.
13:53
Roland Warren
Being being 20 years old and and and really having no visible means of support. I mean, we were just young enough and probably dumb enough to not be as scared as maybe we should have been. Because after we, you know, after we decided to get married, you know, our our parents weren't particularly happy about that, but we did it. And they said, well, okay. You guys wanna be adults?
14:14
Roland Warren
You're gonna be adults? And they basically didn't support us anymore.
14:17
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Cut you off.
14:17
Roland Warren
They cut us off. Yep. And it's just amazing how God just threw all of
14:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
that. Provided.
14:22
Roland Warren
We never took another penny from them. Our wedding our wedding present was her father paying for the delivery of our son. That was that was our that was our wedding gift.
14:31
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh my goodness.
14:32
Roland Warren
So so that was our wedding present. That's what we got, you know, and and that was it. That was the last time they gave us either parents on either side gave us any money and God just worked through that. And as I said, she went on graduated from Princeton. I graduated from Princeton, went on to work in the corporate world and all kinds of stuff.
14:49
Roland Warren
She went on to become a doctor, chief resident of her program, and went into the military. It was a major in the military. I mean, all kinds of great stuff that God God did. But, you know, you couldn't see any of that. So he you know, he's in the middle of it.
15:00
Roland Warren
He wants to be if we'll let him.
15:02
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And the interesting part that, I mean, that leads me to kind of ask you this next question, your story is one of hope. Mean, mine, I guess, too, is in in a very strange strange way. But how do you all approach well, first off, if you can tell people what it is that Care Net does. What is the premise, your mission,
15:33
Roland Warren
your work? Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's interesting because it it it does it's all interconnected because, you know, at the time that we made this decision, I mean, I that wasn't my you know, I wasn't, you know, a pro life activist or, you know, I was just a person, you know, just out there. And I don't know that I had thought about the abortion issue very deeply
15:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
15:53
Roland Warren
Related to that. And and maybe at some level, maybe it was good that I hadn't, that we hadn't really considered that we were able to encourage each other. But, God used all of that, like, the the framework of what happened in our situation, when he moved me from the corporate world where I spent about twenty years to nonprofit, with an organization called National Fatherhood Initiative and then to Care Net. All of that perspective that that goes all the way back to the time I was 20 and the life issue kinda came together. So Care Net is a is a Christian ministry started in 1975, so celebrated our fiftieth anniversary.
16:30
Roland Warren
It started as a Christian Action Council, and then in in the late eighties became CareNet to really focus on building a network of of affiliated pregnancy centers across the country. So currently, we have 1,281 affiliated pregnancy centers across the country.
16:44
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's huge.
16:44
Roland Warren
Yeah. About yeah. And about 60 of them here in in Texas is a big area for us. And the whole objective is to offer compassion, hope, and help to anyone considering you know, has a pregnancy decision that that we do in it. And I don't say unplanned pregnancy.
17:01
Roland Warren
We always say pregnancy decision because a woman has an unplanned pregnancy. Mhmm. Right? But everyone connected to her has a present pregnancy decision. Your mother had a pregnancy decision.
17:11
Roland Warren
My mother, my father. Mhmm. You know, I had a pregnancy decision. In other words, everyone has a view, has a perspective. Because although people try to say that abortion is a individual issue, and it is in terms of an act, it has a community impact.
17:24
Roland Warren
It impacts a legacy. It impacts the future. Mhmm. And we all have a stake in that. And so in any case, the whole focus is really trying to offer compassion, hope, and help Mhmm.
17:37
Roland Warren
To women and men at risk risk for abortion. So came to Care Net about thirteen years ago from National Fatherhood Initiative. And when I was at National Fatherhood Initiative, I was really focused on trying to help men be better dads. Some of the most intractable social ills you know, come from, you know, that perspective where, you know, kids are growing up without involved, responsible, committed fathers. And so Mhmm.
18:00
Roland Warren
I I was one of those kids. I grew up in a father absent home. Mhmm. My mother, interestingly, got pregnant the first time when she was, like, 16, 17 years old. And by the time she was 23, had, you know, four kids under the age of eight, my dad was gone.
18:11
Roland Warren
So I knew that experience and that that life. And so God kinda called me from the business world in that way. But the fatherhood issue then became a key to how I started to look at the life issue because when I I always tell people, and this is kind of central to Care Net's approach to this issue, if you and I know sometimes the age and things of that nature can have an impact, particularly if someone's very young, but if you take someone, I don't know, like our situation, the woman comes to you and she's facing an unplanned pregnancy, and you can change everything, everything except the fact that she's pregnant. Everything. You could change everything.
18:51
Roland Warren
What would you want for her? Right? And there are lots of life affirming options like adoption, things like But if you just talk about the the situation that most people are faced with, You kinda walk through that fact fact pattern. So, okay. Well, I'd want her to have a baby.
19:03
Roland Warren
As a Christian, I mean, what should you want? And moreover, what do you think God would want you to want for her? Okay. She's to have the baby. Okay.
19:08
Roland Warren
Great. Is that it? So you wanna be a single mom and that's your I mean, can change everything. Mhmm. Well, well, guy's involved.
19:14
Roland Warren
Okay. Well, okay. Well, what about him? What role do you want him to play? Well, he's not a great guy.
19:19
Roland Warren
You can change that. He can be the greatest guy. I mean, you could change everything. As you walk through that fact pattern, what you'll get to is, okay. Okay.
19:26
Roland Warren
I want her to have the baby. Yes. I want him to be involved. Okay. I want him to be a good husband to her and a good father to the child growing inside of her.
19:33
Roland Warren
I want him to be a wife and a mother. Okay. And I want them to be married. Okay. Got it.
19:36
Roland Warren
So you're Christian. What else do want? Well, I I want that child to be raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Oh, okay. Great.
19:42
Roland Warren
So you want that. Great. What else? Well, I'd want them to be connected to a local church so they can be disciples who make disciples who live and love like Jesus. Okay.
19:49
Roland Warren
So want them to be a disciple maker. So a family who makes disciples, that's what you would want. And so when I challenge people on the life issue, I say, okay. If that's what you'd want, if you could change everything, is that what we're funding? I mean, is that what the pro life movement is about?
20:05
Roland Warren
Is that what we're funding? And the reality is we're actually not funding that. Even though we have this high idea of what we want, we're actually funding a very low idea in terms of that. And typically, it's kind of help her have the baby and then often become a single mother, and we know the the stats on that. More likely to have another child with another guy, so she comes over with a second baby with a second guy, third baby with a third guy.
20:28
Roland Warren
Yep. That's pro life in the context of she brought the child into the world. Uh-huh. But is that really God's best? And and I put a fine point on that because, you know, if you read the the narrative in scripture, God faced that exact dilemma because Isaiah seven fourteen says that a virgin would conceive, and bear a child.
20:50
Roland Warren
So God kinda locked himself in with his word. Mhmm. And now he comes to Mary, and he's like, I can change everything about her circumstance except the fact that she's pregnant.
20:58
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
20:59
Roland Warren
What do I want for her? What does he do? Goes to Joseph. Calls Joseph to be, what, a husband to her and a father to the child growing inside of her. Mhmm.
21:06
Roland Warren
Is it because he couldn't protect her from a bunch of guys with stones at one
21:09
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
stone her?
21:10
Roland Warren
Of he could. But he has a high idea. He wanted to accomplish his purpose, to bring the savior into the world without violating the high idea. So what do you see there? What does he do?
21:20
Roland Warren
He actually walks through that scenario, and he actually builds a family, a disciple making family that live in love, like the child growing inside of her. So faced with an unplanned pregnancy from a human perspective, God's response is to create a family that makes disciples. We have a woman young lady facing an unplanned pregnancy from some from a human perspective. Our plan is to what? So that really inspired me.
21:46
Roland Warren
And that's part of the reason I wrote that book because I started in 2013, I started really thinking through the life issue with that seminal question of, If you can change everything, what would you want? And so that led me down a path of thinking about the life issue through that lens and having a different perspective, and I call it not being pro life, being pro abundant life, which is where that framework came in.
22:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Thank you for sharing that. And you know where I kept looking in the book for some point as it relates to women who find themselves in a situation where they're pregnant from rape.
22:28
Roland Warren
Mhmm.
22:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
How do those conversations work within this framework, especially, at least my own situation, this guy eventually was incarcerated. I don't know how many times. I mean, it's it's just filled with a lot of darkness.
22:44
Roland Warren
Yeah.
22:46
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
What does that look like for those situations?
22:50
Roland Warren
Yeah. You know, it's it's an interesting question. I actually have a whole framework in the back where we a lot of people, they think through that pro life people, when they think through that question, they respond to that question, and they'll say something like, well, when you look at the abortion issue, only less than one percent of abortions are in cases of rape. Right? So that perspective from a statistical perspective.
23:26
Roland Warren
So it's a very small percentage. But for the woman that it happens to, it's one hundred percent for her.
23:33
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
23:34
Roland Warren
It's one hundred percent for her. Yeah. So you it's important that you have the utmost of compassion in that situation and understanding, you know, that that's what she's facing and how difficult that scenario is.
23:50
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
23:50
Roland Warren
But one of the places that you have to go is you have to ask the question, and this is a central question, I think. And and how you answer this question, I think, determines how you kinda respond to that question. The the rape situation is, should the circumstances of a child's conception and birth Mhmm. Determine its humanity and worth? I'll say that again.
24:11
Roland Warren
Should the circumstances of a child's conception and birth determine its humanity and worth?
24:16
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm. No.
24:18
Roland Warren
Right? I think if like, if we take that scenario out, with any other setting Mhmm. Any other setting, you ask that question, say, well, absolutely not. I mean, look at me. I'm African American.
24:30
Roland Warren
Right? I'm a black person. Right? And the legacy of black people in this country is slavery.
24:36
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
24:37
Roland Warren
Whole structure was based on a narrow that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth determines its humanity and worth. So if you are conceived in birth through a black woman
24:49
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Mhmm.
24:50
Roland Warren
Then that determines your humanity and worth. And we used to have a word. We call call kids bastards. Right? We're born outside of marriage.
24:57
Roland Warren
Right?
24:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
24:57
Roland Warren
You were born outside. You're a bastard.
24:58
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
24:59
Roland Warren
I don't care what you did in life. You were still a bastard.
25:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
25:01
Roland Warren
Because the circumstances of your conception of birth determined your humanity and worth. And so the way I've always approached that is I say, well, okay, that's what you have to wrestle with because there's consequences of having that perspective. So if you say, well, okay, well, when it comes to race or something else, no, no, it doesn't matter. But when it comes to this issue, well, yes, it does matter. Because what you're basically saying, if your knee jerk reaction, is that if a child is conceived as a result of rape, your knee jerk reaction is that the circumstances of that child's conception and birth determines its humanity and worth, then you've got a moral inconsistency in terms of what you're doing there.
25:43
Roland Warren
So in the midst of having you have utmost compassion in that situation. But you have to understand to me, I think if you walk with integrity in terms of looking at that, I think it's problematic if you say, in this setting, yes, it does. And in that setting, no. I think that's morally problematic and inconsistent. I think that, you know, certainly from a biblical perspective, children are I mean, they are connected to Imago Dei.
26:11
Roland Warren
Right? I mean, the notion of Imago Dei is that they're created in the image of God. Mhmm. And whether they conceived in lust or love or this or fetal abnormality or perfectly healthy or planned or unplanned, it doesn't matter because you have an intrinsic connection to the creator. Mhmm.
26:29
Roland Warren
And you're worthy of you're worthy of protection. And and I think the other thing too, you know, I've talked to quite a few women who have have had that scenario and then went on to have their children. And one of the things I've noticed in conversations with them is that part of what drives them to bring the child into the world is that they refuse to allow the rapist to extend his power through them Mhmm. And for them to be agents of him Mhmm. In that context.
27:03
Roland Warren
Yeah. Right? Because if you think about, like, why do we find rape so abhorrent? If you why do why is it so abhorrent? Well, because someone uses their power against someone who's vulnerable.
27:17
Roland Warren
That's actually so the reason why you would be against rape, but also be the same reason why you'd be against abortion. Mhmm. Right? Because it's it's a notion of there's a power dynamic that happens in the situation of rape. One of the frameworks I have in the back of the book, I have this framework I call compassion pairing
27:34
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Okay.
27:34
Roland Warren
In the back of the book. And it basically walks through, like, how you think through the abortion issue. Because basically, whenever we look at a situation and when we're thinking about compassion, we go through a framework where we ask ourselves the question, who's the most powerful? Who's the most vulnerable? And then what we tend to do is apportion more compassion for the more vulnerable.
27:57
Roland Warren
That's actually the difference between us and, say, a lion on the surrogate.
28:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
28:02
Roland Warren
So a lion on the surrogate, he's looking at, okay, so what's for dinner? And he looks out and he sees an adult gazelle and he sees a baby gazelle. And he does a compassion pairing and says, who's the more powerful, who's the more vulnerable? Okay, the adult's more powerful, the baby's more vulnerable. I'm gonna let the adult go free, and I'm gonna Eat the baby.
28:19
Roland Warren
In other words, have more compassion for the adult.
28:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
28:21
Roland Warren
So when we do that and when we see that in humanity, we go, that's horrible. This powerful person, right, using their power against the vulnerable, we are wired to do that. And so when you think about it actually determines what do we care about, how do we care? And I don't care if you approach choice or it doesn't matter. Probably if you're crossing the street and there's a 25 year old man holding a bag of groceries and an 85 year old woman holding a bag of groceries and they both drop their groceries at exactly the same moment, Who are you gonna help?
28:56
Roland Warren
You're probably gonna help the 85 year old man. Don't care whether you're polite or prodigy, the Republican you're probably gonna help. Why? What you did so quickly in your mind is you did that compassion period. Say, who's the more powerful, who's the more vulnerable, and then how do I apportion compassion?
29:10
Roland Warren
And it's not that you have no compassion for the 25 year old, but you apportion it. So when you look at that scenario in terms of a situation with a woman who's carrying a child as a result of rape, And you're trying to figure out, as you support this, how do you apportion compassion? And you say to yourself, okay, who's the more powerful and who's the more vulnerable in that context? And what you say is, yes, I have abundance of compassion for the woman, but I gotta have a little more compassion, have more compassion for the child, because the child is vulnerable, more vulnerable than the woman. And abortion is basically built on that framework, because if you think about it, it's a power statement.
29:49
Roland Warren
When you say, my body, my choice, that's actually a power statement. You're actually making a statement about power. And you're basically saying, My body, my choice. In other words, I'm the more powerful. This child's the more vulnerable.
30:01
Roland Warren
And that's why I think often when women have abortions and they start to regret it, is that they realize that what they allow themselves to do because of the circumstances, they allow themselves to change the way that they even view compassion in every other situation, every other situation. So you're pregnant later, and now you're looking back at that situation. And what are you doing when you're pregnant later? You know I'm powerful. I'm carrying this vulnerable child.
30:29
Roland Warren
I'm doing everything in my power to protect this vulnerable child, to bring the child into the world. And in that setting, I did the opposite. You see the conflict here, the cognitive dissonance, and that's what creates the grief and the guilt and all the things that are connected to that. So of closing where we started, that framework of power, vulnerability, and compassion and thinking about it that way, it actually helps you see what the right way is. Now how do people, even some pro life people, come up with a situation, well, okay, but I'm okay accepting cases of rape and whatever.
31:04
Roland Warren
How do they do that? And what I figured out as I thought about this more, because people walk through a process, what are they doing? Right? So when you look at the compassion pairing and you say you're pro life, you say, okay. You say, okay, who's the more powerful?
31:18
Roland Warren
The woman. Who's the more vulnerable? The baby. So as a pro life person, I'm gonna have more compassion for the baby. In other words, I'm gonna protect the life of the baby all the while understanding I have to have compassion for the woman.
31:27
Roland Warren
I get that. Good. So what happens when there's a rape? What you actually end up doing is you start to do a compassion pairing, not with the woman and the baby, but with the woman and the rapist. And you say between the woman and the rapist, who's the more powerful?
31:41
Roland Warren
The rapist. Who's the more vulnerable? The woman. And you have more compassion for the woman. So you use that compassion pairing to make the decision about the decision with the child.
31:52
Roland Warren
But the child is not in that dynamic. Right? The child is not in that dynamic. You should not use that compassion pairing in order to make the decision about what happens with the child. It's because there's a new compassion pairing that happens with the rapist and the court system.
32:07
Roland Warren
In other words, if you and I'll just frame it one more time just to put a finer point on it. If you do the compassion pairing between the rapist and the baby in the womb, who's the more powerful? The rapist? Who's the more vulnerable? The baby in the womb?
32:20
Roland Warren
Who ends up dying in that situation? The baby in the womb. Which means we have more compassion for the rapist
32:28
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
32:31
Roland Warren
Who's not the vulnerable.
32:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's
32:33
Roland Warren
right. Right? But you only get that kind of clarity if you kind of step back and you say, okay, let me pull this back, let me be consistent about how I apportion compassion, and let me apply that same framework to every scenario. And we know that's true. We know that when the powerful, right, empty themselves and that's why we're drawn to Christ because this framework, this compassionate pairing framework, is so central to how we view things that God used it to connect us to Christ.
33:03
Roland Warren
What did God what did Christ do? He emptied himself of his power. He cloaked himself in vulnerability, and you can't help but being drawn to him. He came as a baby, vulnerable, died on the cross. Vulnerable.
33:17
Roland Warren
That's why we have compassion. That's why we're drawn to him. We're wired to do that. And when we don't do that, it's it's such a part of how we're created that when we don't do it, it's gonna create problems because he wired us to he wired us to think about things that way, he wired us to to respond that way. And frankly, our whole society is built on making sure that we don't allow the power to take advantage of the vulnerable.
33:38
Roland Warren
And I just think we have to be consistent across every setting because the most vulnerable place that any of us have ever been in our life is not some dark alley or this, that, and the other. The most vulnerable place that any one of us have ever been. It's like the universal vulnerability we all have is in the womb.
33:54
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Absolutely.
33:55
Roland Warren
And what do we want our moms? And what did our moms do to get us out? They said, who's the more powerful? Me. Who's the more vulnerable?
34:00
Roland Warren
This child growing inside of me. I'm gonna have compassion for this child, and I'm gonna give them life. And that's why we celebrate that, and that's why when that doesn't happen, it can be difficult for us. Anyway.
34:12
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes. Without question. Thank you for for streamlining all of those really excellent points because it's helpful. And those are not too far off from where I eventually wound up within my own framework as a younger adult. I was a loud voice for the pro choice movement.
34:37
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And talk about cognitive dissonance. It was but I just tripled down on it because I thought, no. For people who do find themselves in a situation of pain, terror, all of the ripe breeding ground for any type of decision to abort. I had such compassion for those women who were like me. And I took verbatim the words that the nurse that I sat with, and my mother as well, and said, women in your circumstance tend to hate their children.
35:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yours was one of I mean, it was littered in the fact that my mom she let me sneak out of the house all the time. I would go tell her, mom, I'm going to Juarez. I'm gonna go here, blah, blah, blah. And she said, okay, just be quiet and make sure your father doesn't find out. So she would always know my whereabouts.
35:50
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I'm a product of very permissive parenting because she was trying to live her life through me. She would always say, You have just such a bold voice. You're courageous. I can't public speak. I can't do this.
36:04
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I was never top of the class. I was never a cheerleader. All the things just kind of she very much lived her life through me. And she admitted it when I was older, but a lot of those decisions to just allow me to do whatever I wanted to do because I appeared to be responsible here really harmed me. But when I started to dig deeply into the very strong astute arguments from the pro lifers, I thought, okay, I'm gonna go dig up all the financials of Planned Parenthood and figure out how they are actually motivated to give the advice that they do in that room with a very vulnerable child.
36:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
A 15 year old is a child. But that woman absolutely told me, You have no choice. I mean, same things. Why would you consider ruining your future? You have such promise.
37:13
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You're this. And really, the people who choose to carry through the pregnancy in your circumstances where drugs are involved and, you know, people someone is is drugged and it's there are lifelong effects in that fetus. And then she even delved into the fact that it was so early on. You're five weeks. This is not a life, and I believed it.
37:42
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Even though I went to a nondenominational school from first to twelfth grade, I knew better. I knew better, and so did my mother who was a staunch Catholic. But again, my mother said, No. Yes. You can't go through with this.
38:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You have too much promise. And then I find out as an adult, Roland, that it was almost like a sister to me, this female in my life, and I had shared with her what happened and my decision to go through the abortion. And I told my mother, oh, I shared the information with this person. And my mom went to her and said, she's lying. That didn't happen.
38:31
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
She didn't have an abortion. And I found this out as an adult.
38:37
Roland Warren
Wow.
38:38
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And I thought to myself, it's so typical. It's so typical of my mother to have done something like that. And I cried to Monty about it, I said, Why on earth would I manufacture something like that? Right? But then my mother, I think she was already I think no, no, no.
38:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
She hadn't passed. She was just in her later stages of Alzheimer's. But it was just pain on top of pain. But they make it very believable, right? Your five weeks, your it's gonna be easier and better.
39:15
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Absolutely not. The trauma?
39:18
Roland Warren
Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's funny. It's it's it's not funny. Not like funny,
39:23
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
but it's ironic. It's ironic. Yes.
39:26
Roland Warren
That, you know, that one of the things I mean, this is part of the problem with all of this, is that what I find is that when you're faced with the abortion decision, regardless of what the circumstances are, you know, often when that happens, there's like this relief that happens. Okay. I got rid of this problem and whatever, and and that's it. And regret is low and relief is high. Right?
39:55
Roland Warren
So it's like a graph where regret Yes. Put that in my book. You're right. Regret is high. Mhmm.
39:59
Roland Warren
I mean, excuse me, relief is high. Regret is very low.
40:01
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
40:02
Roland Warren
And what I've seen again and again and again as I've talked to so many different women is that over time Yep. Relief goes like this and regret goes like this.
40:11
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Absolutely.
40:12
Roland Warren
And that's the part and that's where they're not really being honest with people, that even with regards to the circumstances, like, you're not God. You cannot predict the future. You know, we our actions have consequences. And although we have a 100% control over our actions, we have 0% control over the consequences of our actions. Mhmm.
40:34
Roland Warren
Those are all in the hands of God. And he just says, listen. Do this righteous act. And I know you don't won't understand in this moment and this and the other, and I know that it's difficult, I know that there's pain. But the consequences of that like, again, it's it's to your to your your points, like, the the notion that nothing good can come from this.
40:51
Roland Warren
Mhmm. Look. For the disciples looking up for Mary, looking up for John, looking up at Jesus on the cross, nothing good can come from this. There's nothing good that can come from this. Really?
41:04
Roland Warren
Mhmm. I mean, that's really what the problem is with that is we try to make ourselves God.
41:09
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
God.
41:09
Roland Warren
And and and, you know, it's it's it's when I talk to people about the life issue, one of the ways I really try to help them understand the insight God gave me and certainly the situation that we're talking about is one of the most complex and challenging. When you look at the abortion issue, you have to look at it through the framework of the different types of problems that we in humanity face. So there are problems that are simple problems. So a simple problem is like a pegboard. There's a peg and there's a hole, and you take the peg, you put it the hole.
41:43
Roland Warren
It's simple. That's why a toddler can take a peg and put it in the hole. Simple problems. But then there are other problems that are complicated problems. Complicated.
41:51
Roland Warren
It's like a jigsaw puzzle. Got a thousand pieces, and I can see the box. I know what it's supposed to look like when I'm done, but I don't know where the pieces go. Right? So simple problems have what are called known knowns.
42:03
Roland Warren
I know what I know, like no knowns. Complicated problems. Right? Complicated problems have what what are called unknown known unknowns. In other words, I know how many pieces I have, but I don't know where they go.
42:15
Roland Warren
Now the thing about simple and complicated problems is this. They're not dynamic. In other words, the solutions don't change over time. Come back a thousand years from now and got a pegboard and a puzzle, still put it together exactly the same way. That's why people say, oh, your relationship tell me.
42:31
Roland Warren
You're like, well, it's complicated. Actually, your relationship is not complicated. Relationships aren't
42:37
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
It's not
42:37
Roland Warren
They're not complicated. Yep. Wait. I used to, when we're dating, she got mad at me, and I brought her flowers, and she was fine. Now I got married to her.
42:46
Roland Warren
She's mad. I bring her flowers, and she's not fine. What happened? This is supposed to be no. It's not complicated.
42:51
Roland Warren
Mhmm. See, then there's the third category of problems. And the third category of problems are complex. And complex problems are unknown unknowns. Mhmm.
43:03
Roland Warren
They're unknown unknowns. Human relationships are complex. They're not complicated. There's unknown unknowns. The woman I kissed a day ago when I left Mhmm.
43:15
Roland Warren
Maryland to come here, my wife, that's not the woman I'm going back to. Life has impacted her. I won't be the same person. Like, you live it impacts you. So when you marry someone, what actually committing to is that I will love you in a covenant way through the complexities of life as you change.
43:36
Roland Warren
That's actually what you're committing to. That's exactly what you're committing to. So human relationships are complex. Now an abortion is complex. Why?
43:46
Roland Warren
It's a human relationship. It's the relationship that the woman has with the child growing inside of her. The humanity inside of her. It's the relationship she has with the guy who got her pregnant, whether it's the circumstance you talk about or whether it was whatever. It's what happens to the relationship with the mother, your mother who was there's this whole complex dynamic that is in abortion.
44:10
Roland Warren
And the reason why women are not being served well by the abortion industry is they're telling them that this is a simple problem. You got pregnant. You got a baby you don't want.
44:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
They're all lies. They're all lies.
44:24
Roland Warren
Abortion, take a pill, easy peasy. Simple. Peg, pegboard. Done. Wait a minute.
44:31
Roland Warren
This is complex. Mhmm. See, human relationships are complex. Now sin is complex. Sin is complex.
44:42
Roland Warren
In the garden, Adam and Eve, they sin. God had a simple life for them. Mhmm. Peg, pegboard. Eat from that tree, don't eat from that tree.
44:49
Roland Warren
Yes. Right? So when they were tempted and say, you'll be like God, what that meant was you are going to enter into a world of complexity. Mhmm. Now what they didn't tell them was, you're not equipped.
45:02
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
45:02
Roland Warren
Why? Because for God, everything is simple. He doesn't there's no complexity with God because there are no unknown unknowns. Mhmm. So what he's basically saying is, listen.
45:12
Roland Warren
I deal with complexity. I give you simplicity. Walk in it. And Satan Timm like, no. You actually want a little bit of complexity.
45:19
Roland Warren
Actually, you don't because you're not equipped because you you don't know unknown unknowns. Like, you can't deal with that. Mhmm. Right? And how they try to solve that complex problem of sin, simply with a fig leaf.
45:32
Roland Warren
God comes yeah. Simple. So he did. God comes and says, not so much. No.
45:39
Roland Warren
No. Sin is complex. Mhmm. What does he do? He kills an animal, another human.
45:43
Roland Warren
Complex. And he says there'll be another one who will come who will come to solve the complex problem of sin. And what I got from all of that, which which is which is ties back to the abortion issue, is that complex problems are best solved in relationships. Relationships solve complex problems. That's why Jesus came in person, Emmanuel, God with us, to solve the complex problem of sin.
46:11
Roland Warren
So when you think about abortion and solution to abortion, it's not a pill and it's not legislation. Mhmm. It's relationships. First, the relationship with God. I'm gonna trust God in the midst of this pregnancy.
46:26
Roland Warren
The circumstances of this child's conception and birth should not determine its humanity and worth. I understand that. I I understand that. I'm so I'm gonna trust God in the complexity of this. I'm not gonna allow the the tempter, the evil one, whoever is the agent, the evil one Mhmm.
46:41
Roland Warren
To convince me that a simple solution is gonna come is gonna solve this complex problem. No. No. No. No.
46:47
Roland Warren
It's best solved in relationships. So that's the role of your mom and the role of this and the most importantly, the role of God in this. I'm gonna trust God in the midst of this with my 15 year old daughter. I don't know what the future he does. I know that this is a child.
47:01
Roland Warren
It's not a life worth sacrificing, but a life worth sacrificing for. I know that. And I'm gonna take all the pain that came from this situation, and I'm gonna leave that at the cross. See, when you like, just hearing your story, and because I've heard other stories of other women who had the circumstance that you had, and they become amazing pro choice advocates, and they are all of that because because they're they're looking at their situation, right? And they're projecting it to others, and they support abortion in all cases, not just
47:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
in Oh, those got you.
47:33
Roland Warren
Because the reality is, if you said, Okay, great, then the logic would be, if a woman is raped, then she can have an abortion. That would be my position as a pro choice person, but that's not the pro choice position at all.
47:43
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Not the
47:45
Roland Warren
pro choice position at all. Right? So you're not even there, but I understand that. And what I've come to the conclusion of is that what you're really dealing with is so often, whether it's virtue or vice, it's shaped by how we handle pain. And so the fundamental question that all of us have to answer is not really why is there pain?
48:09
Roland Warren
Because we may not know this that we often don't know this this side of heaven. We'll never know why why any of this happens. But we all have to answer this other question, which is what are you gonna do with your pain?
48:21
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right. What are
48:22
Roland Warren
you gonna do with your pain? And if you look at virtue, you look at vice in the world, most virtue, vice, it's all connected to people working out their pain. Some people this person injures themselves and they become an advocate for for this thing. This other person injures himself, and they become angry and destructive because nobody like, why did this happen to me? They be but it's all about what are you gonna do with your pain?
48:42
Roland Warren
And and what we'd say and this is why a Christian view of this issue is so critically important because there is one who experienced the most physical, emotional, spiritual, and social pain more than any of us ever did, and it was Jesus on the cross. Yes. We we can't even get our head around. No.
49:00
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Can't fathom.
49:01
Roland Warren
You can't even fathom. I mean, the closest folks to ever get to are Adam and Eve who walked in the garden, the cooligate, had that kind of relationship, and that's not even as intimate as Christ and the Godhead with Him and the humanity, and He was separated from all of that. Ultimate physical, emotional, spiritual, and social pain on the cross. And what does he do on the cross with that pain? He reconciles.
49:23
Roland Warren
He forgives the victimizer, the thief on the cross. Not the wrongly accused thief on the cross. This will be your John, this is your mother, Mary. This is your he's reconciling. He's restoring.
49:33
Roland Warren
Forgive them for the he's forgiving. Right? So you have this situation where you're struggling with this pregnancy that came as a result of horrible, horrible, horrible, unjust pain. Unjust pain. And what's the evil one want you to do?
49:52
Roland Warren
To take that pain and turn it into vice. Mhmm. To extend what that person did to you. Allow him to extend his power through you as opposed to saying, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna do what Christ did on the cross.
50:08
Roland Warren
I'm gonna take this pain and I'm gonna take it into virtue. So that's thinking about the life issue in that context. So I know a lot of folks say, Wow, that's the issue. That's the separator. But no, the reality is when I've talked to women who've done this, the ones who have made that other decision, and again, relationships that you needed the support of your mom, you needed the support of folks around you saying, God's in the midst of this.
50:34
Roland Warren
Right? Women who've had that and been able to do that, that's what I've heard them say. No. No. They realize, oh my gosh.
50:41
Roland Warren
I'm like Christ. I'm like Christ. I didn't deserve this. Wasn't my fault. I didn't deserve it.
50:49
Roland Warren
And yet, in the midst of that, this is not a life worth sacrificing. Mhmm. It's a life worth sacrificing for. When Christ came down, these these are my fault. It ain't a life worth sacrificing, but one worth sacrificing for.
51:04
Roland Warren
And that's why it's empower I found talking to women, and you can we have it on your show who've made that decision. They're so empowered because they realize that they are most like God and they were most like Christ in that moment when they sacrificed themselves, if you will, for the vulnerable rather than sacrificing the vulnerable for for themselves. And we all know that in our humanity. Mhmm. The stories we celebrate in the public square, when somebody sacrifices the vulnerable for themselves, we don't celebrate those stories.
51:31
Roland Warren
What are the ones we celebrate? Yep. Oh my gosh. That's what heroism is. Oh my gosh.
51:35
Roland Warren
They we know that. We know that. And so I put this narrative out there for folks to consider because I think ultimately we don't serve those women well by not giving them that perspective and helping them in that moment. And we give them a different perspective.
51:55
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
You're right. And my birth mother, I told you she was working as a housekeeper at that point in time, and my aunt, who she was working for, didn't treat her very kindly. Actually, quite the opposite. I mean, she and my father, who my father and her both had a lot of pain from their own family, especially father. And sadly, you know, they just continued to harm others.
52:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
So my birth mother lived in this very painful environment as a housekeeper the entire duration of my pregnancy. And my mother was the only one that you know, she would take her to the doctor office for wellness visits and all the things to make sure that I was growing well. So both of my mothers, my mom that raised me and my biological mother, were very close. And it was a beautiful relationship. And so and once the the secret was released that and or found out that I was adopted, my mother told me, you will be amazed if you ever meet this woman at how tough she is.
53:22
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
She said, Sarah, I told you I've always admired your courage, your willingness to speak out in front of people.
53:29
Roland Warren
She said, Just wait till you meet this lady. Wow.
53:32
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
And so I met her, and we're very close now, but she's tough. She's tough as nails. Little lady, and I look just like her. And so it's just a beautiful thing because now I see this woman and I think to myself, my goodness, you are a hero. You're a modern day hero.
53:57
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I mean, right? Her life is anything but glamorous, but she walks around, you know, and she always prayed for me, constantly prayed for me, constantly, constantly. And to think that fast forward, I was this young lady who found myself in this situation. And again, I've forgiven my mother who's now deceased. I've forgiven all of it, even myself, for my decisions.
54:30
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
But the fact that I added insult to injury and went and became a voice, a pro choice voice, was something that took even longer for me to forgive myself for. Because I was furious when I finally realized I remember the moment when I realized, Planned Parenthood, they knew. They saw me as a statistic. They used all of that vinegar and poison to have me believing for a part of a decade and a half or two decades of my life that what I did was right and it was justified and that was the right, smart thing to do. So then I flipped.
55:24
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I thought, okay, I now have to spend equal time pouring out the truth that I was. I was nothing other than a statistic. They profited from me. Their whole line of profitability weighs in that ability to convince women to have an abortion, prey on their fear, prey on the ability, right? Just all of it.
55:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Fertile ground for just taking advantage of women like myself. And so I was pissed, Roland.
56:02
Roland Warren
Oh my gosh. Well, it's interesting, though, because I always look at these things through I try to look at them through a biblical narrative because it's like when Saul became Paul.
56:14
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
56:15
Roland Warren
Right? And this is one of the reasons why for me, for people who've had abortions or struggled with that, you know, there there's no, like, arrogance on pride on on my side Mhmm. With with that we made a different decision. I understand that, but for the grace of God, we could have been in the other other the other place. And what the evil one wants, he wants, like, he wants two things.
56:37
Roland Warren
As you particularly if you have a Christian perspective, as you as you go in, he he gives you the perspective, why wouldn't you have an abortion? And then as you come out, he says, how could you? So, you know, he wants to keep you in in shame there.
56:52
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
56:52
Roland Warren
And for me, the most some of the most powerful advocates I've seen on this issue are people who've who've done that. And that's why, you know, you and I kinda emailed about this when you were telling me your story. I've had people come up to me at different events and say, oh, I can never understand how one would have an abortion, this and the other.
57:08
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
I read that in your book.
57:09
Roland Warren
And I remember one person in particular that came up to me that way, it just had this sense, and I certainly understand how people
57:17
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Oh, the gentleman you wrote about.
57:18
Roland Warren
Yeah, Could could think that. Mhmm. And, you know, God gave me an insight about, you know, that abortion is not just a physical act. It's a it's a worldview, basically, that goes all the way back to the garden. Like, body, my choice, my fruit, my choice.
57:32
Roland Warren
I mean, the first abortion I actually have in the garden. It's basically saying, I know what's better for my life than God does. In other words, I can deal with this complexity of life better than God can. Right? It that's basically what an abortion is.
57:44
Roland Warren
And and I was just reminded that, you know, Peter aborted Jesus. You know, he's sitting there by the fire. And I don't know this guy, three times. And this is a guy that chapter before, whatever, he's cutting somebody's ear off. And you start to sit there and say, well, so he aborted Jesus.
58:00
Roland Warren
He knew he was the way, the truth, and the life. And yet he said, this is a life worth sacrificing. Right? And why? He was isolated.
58:08
Roland Warren
He was alone. In other words, he didn't have the relationships like he did, like when he was standing there with his sword out in the garden. Had all the other disciples there. And Jesus like, he was isolated and alone, and that's what really what what the evil wants to do. And I find that's kinda why the whole notion, her body, her choice, is about isolation and being alone.
58:26
Roland Warren
So what you have is somebody you you you don't want unity and community, which is a relationship construct, which is what you had in the garden before sin entered. You want, you want anonymity and and autonomy. Right? It's conflict, isolation, all of that.
58:42
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Yes.
58:43
Roland Warren
And then when we're when we're in that situation, it's much easier for us us to make a decision. So what I saw in that whole story is that and the whole narrative about Peter is like, well, what happened? What did Jesus do? And what did Peter do? Well, Peter went back to fishing.
58:58
Roland Warren
Mhmm. Like, I would be from my standpoint, well, kinda be pro choice. I'm gonna go back to doing the thing I always did. Right? And I'm certain, like, I reject it.
59:06
Roland Warren
And what did Jesus do? He said, you know, have my disciples. And Peter, called Peter, and then he restores him. Do you love me? Do you love me?
59:12
Roland Warren
Do you love me? Right? In other words, rebuilds that relationship, and then Peter becomes an amazing, you know, disciple maker for Christ, never aborts Jesus again. So God doesn't waste any of the pain. So if you've made the life decision, you should have no pride in that.
59:29
Roland Warren
And if you've made the the abortion decision and you've repented, you're reconciled and restored, you should have no shame and no guilt in it. There's no condemnation in Christ in Christ Jesus. And so I think part of the the the power of getting people mobilized on this is, yes, people like myself who, by the grace of God, did that. It's an it's a wonderful story. God gets all the glory.
59:51
Roland Warren
But in people in your situation, it's a wonderful story too, and God gets all the glory in your case too. And you're using, you know, again, all of it. When you said it before the cross, he uses it to reconcile, to restore, right, to build abundance. And that's why I think about this issue there as not as pro life, but pro abundant life, from my perspective, is is one of the frameworks that's really important. So I encourage those who are watching this.
60:12
Roland Warren
If you made the abortion decision, whatever it is, hey. You can be forgiven and set free. And we've got a big ministry component, at CareNet that you that we they say a big part of our ministry is focused on people who are post abortive, forgiven and set free resource, and for men reclaiming fatherhood because both are affected by abortion. It's different, but both are affected by abortion, and we want those folks not to be impused at church, racked with guilt and shame, but that's what the evil one wants. No.
60:39
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
That's right.
60:39
Roland Warren
We want them, like Peter, to be restored, Christ is waiting to restore you. And we hopefully have resources that can help you in that regard.
60:45
Sarah Zubiate Bennett
Thank you so much, Roland. You're welcome.
featuring our host.
SARAH ZUBIATE BENNETT
Venture Philanthropist, Host and Executive Producer of Let’s Talk Local, bold leader driving growth in private and social sectors.
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